TESTIMONY OF W. E. PERRY

The testimony of W.E. Perry was taken at 9:20 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. State your name, please.
Mr. PERRY. W.E. Perry.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? What is your address?
Mr. PERRY. 6821 Overlook.
Mr. BALL. And your occupation?
Mr. PERRY. Police officer.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself? Where you were born and where you were raised?
Mr. PERRY. I was born and raised right here in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. PERRY. Went to school here in Dallas and Forest High School.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school?
Mr. PERRY. Well, I worked for the phone company a little while and went in business with my dad in the furniture business, and then I went on to the police department. Been there about 11 years.
Mr. ROSE. Now, with the police department, what was your occupation in November of 1963?

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Mr. PERRY. I was with the vice and special services bureau.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty in the afternoon?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In the vice bureau----
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Squad room?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you take part in a showup?
Mr. PERRY. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. What time?
Mr. PERRY. Approximately 4:35 or----
Mr. BALL. First one?
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you take part in another showup?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What time?
Mr. PERRY. 6:30.
Mr. BALL. Take part in any other showups?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?
Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Back on the record. Had you ever head of officers taking part in showups before in your department?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. But, you hadn't yourself?
Mr. PERRY. I hadn't myself; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part?
Mr. PERRY. Physically, down there?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall, that has been an awful long time ago. I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. Now, do you use your--use showups in your business, in the vice squad?
Mr. PERRY. I don't think we do; huh-huh, no. Never heard of it done.
Mr. BALL. You never have? Who talked to you and asked you to take part in the first showup?
Mr. PERRY. Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Did he talk to you?
Mr. PERRY. No; he talked to somebody else in our bureau.
Mr. BALL. And they relayed the order to you?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. PERRY. We went on up to--Clark and myself went on up to the third floor of the homicide office.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who else was there?
Mr. PERRY. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the office was----
Mr. BALL. Anything said there?
Mr. PERRY. I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. Any conversation with Oswald?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress?
Mr. PERRY. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my shirt and put another sports coat on.
Mr. BALL. What color?
Mr. PERRY. I believe it was a brown sports coat.
Mr. BALL. Then you went down to the showup?

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Mr. PERRY. Went down to the showup.
Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed?
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. To whom?
Mr. PERRY. To Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Which arm, or hand?
Mr. PERRY. My left hand to his right hand.
Mr. BALL. What place did you have in the showup?
Mr. PERRY. I was No. 1.
Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald?
Mr. PERRY. Oswald was No. 2, next to me.
Mr. BALL. Who was handcuffed to Oswald?
Mr. PERRY. Clark was handcuffed.
Mr. BALL. That was No. 3. Who was 4?
Mr. PERRY. Ables.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know him before?
Mr. PERRY. I had seen--had seen him, but I didn't know him personally.
Mr. BALL. He is a clerk in the jail?
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any questions?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; my name and what have you.
Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."?
Mr. PERRY. Well, occupation.
Mr. BALL. What else?
Mr. PERRY. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not mistaken.
Mr. BALL. And what answer did you give him?
Mr. PERRY. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they were, but they weren't----
Mr. BALL. You didn't give him your true name?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or true address?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or the car you drove?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Ask you what your occupation was?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a police officer?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Gave some----
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You took part in the second showup, didn't you?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. At 6:30, and who called you for that?
Mr. PERRY. We were down in the office and they simply called us and said they were ready for us again. Wanted us to come back and then we went back up there and----
Mr. BALL. How were you dressed that time?
Mr. PERRY. Same way.
Mr. BALL. Same coat?
Mr. PERRY. Same coat.
Mr. BALL. No tie?
Mr. PERRY. No tie.
Mr. BALL. Give the same answers and same name, occupation and address?
Mr. PERRY. Best I recall I think they were all fictitious too.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation which took place in the audience?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions?
Mr. PERRY. Sims, I believe. It was Sims.
Mr. BALL. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims?
Mr. PERRY. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir.

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Mr. BALL. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience?
Mr. PERRY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage?
Mr. PERRY. From the stage where we were; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know?
Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. But you remember Sims did the second one?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. All right. Will you state your height, please?
Mr. PERRY. About 5'11".
Mr. BALL. What is your weight?
Mr. PERRY. About 150.
Mr. BALL. And your hair?
Mr. PERRY. Brown.
Mr. BALL. And your eyes?
Mr. PERRY. Blue.
Mr. BALL. Complexion?
Mr. PERRY. I guess medium, fair, I guess.
Mr. BALL. That's all.


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