Testimony Of Marilyn Dorothea Murret

Marilyn Dorothea Murret, a witness, having been duly sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help her God, testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress number 137.
I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you last week and told you that I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and I understand that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order to which I have just referred, as well as the copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are technically entitled to 3-days' notice of this hearing under the Commission's rules. As I understand it, the Secret Service contacted you on Friday of last week. This may not actually be 3-days' notice, but you have the right to waive that notice. I presume that you are willing to do so, since you are here and willing to testify?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you as to any knowledge that you may have of the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and as to any knowledge that you may have of his activities while he was here in New Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963.
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of your knowledge on those questions, would you please state your full name for the record?
Miss MURRET. Marilyn Dorothea Murret.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Miss MURRET. 757 French.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Miss Murret?
Miss MURRET. New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all of your life here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. Well, except for the time I traveled and I lived 2 years in St. Louis.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, would you give us a brief run-down of your educational background.
Miss MURRET. Well, from elementary on?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Miss MURRET. I went to John Dibert Elementary School, and John McDonogh High School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Those are both located here in the city of New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir; and Loyola University, and L.S.U. at Baton Rouge, and Tulane, and a summer at Duke, and University of California, the Sorbonne, and University of Madrid, and St. Louis University----
Mr. LIEBELER. What degrees do you hold from these schools which you have mentioned?
Miss MURRET. I just have a B.A., and the others were educational courses--instead of going to one school, I just went to various ones.
Mr. LIEBELER. What school gave you your B.A.?
Miss MURRET. Tulane.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tulane University?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are a teacher. Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently teaching?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Miss MURRET. Fortier?
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?
Miss MURRET. Fortier.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you taught at the Junior University of New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. Yes; unfortunately.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did teach there?
Miss MURRET. September through December, but he didn't pay us--he paid the first check, but he is out of business at the moment, and he didn't pay the last two. But he recently paid me for the November check, and he still owes me for December.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the person who is running the Junior University of New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. Yes; it is closed down now, but he still has the one across the river. He had two, one on this side, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Two so-called universities?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. But the one on it St. Charles is closed, and the one across the river is still operating.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you taught at the one-----
Miss MURRET. Across the river. We didn't get paid so we----
Mr. LIEBELER. If I understand, the one you taught at is still operating, but they haven't paid you your salary, so you quit and started teaching at Fortier?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who are your parents?
Miss MURRET. Mr. and Mrs. Charles Murret.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is also known as Dutz Murret?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your father's occupation?
Miss MURRET. Well, steamship clerk--I don't know whether it comes under the jurisdiction of, whether it is under the Mississippi Shipping, or how they operate, actually.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the name of the company for which he works?
Miss MURRET. I don't know if it is just---the way it is, if there is no business on one wharf, they call him on another. I just don't know how that works.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your mother's name is----
Miss MURRET. Lillian Murret, maiden name Claverie.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother is the sister of Marguerite Claverie, is she not----
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with your mother's family? Does she have other brothers and sisters?
Miss MURRET. They are all--most of them are dead. Her brothers all died when they were quite young, I believe during World War I, and when her mother died, she was about 33 years old. Her father died when I was very young, and I don't remember him at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's father died when you were a young girl?
Miss MURRET. That is right, and her mother died when she was 33.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when----
Miss MURRET. When her mother was 33.
Mr. LIEBELER. When her mother was 33?
Miss MURRET. Yes; I think the eldest child is--I just don't have any idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters did your mother have?
Miss MURRET. Three sisters, I think, and two brothers.
Mr. LIEBELER. And one of these sisters would have been Mrs. Oswald; is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether in the family there would have been four girls and two boys?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's three sisters and the two----
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. All of these three sisters, except for Mrs. Oswald, and both of the two brothers are deceased, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. One other sister is still living, and the rest are all dead.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the other sister's name?
Miss MURRET. Mancy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that her last name?
Miss MURRET. That is her first name, and I can hardly remember the last name.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know her last name?
Miss MURRET. I do, but I can't remember it. It will come to me in a moment. She lives in Frankfort. She goes from one daughter to the other daughter because her husband is dead.

Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in----
Miss MURRET. From Kentucky and Tennessee, from Kentucky to Tennessee she goes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in Frankfort, Ky, and at times she goes over to Tennessee and lives with her children? How many children does she have?
Miss MURRET. Three no, four. That is Winfry, is her name.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the other of your mother's sisters?
Miss MURRET. It was Marguerite, Mancy, my mother, and Pearl was the other one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pearl, who is deceased?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has she children living?
Miss MURRET. Yes; two.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is Pearl's last name?
Miss MURRET. Whittaker. But he is dead also, the husband.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were her children boys or girls?
Miss MURRET. Two boys.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where they live now?
Miss MURRET. Emile Whittaker lives in Jefferson Parish somewhere, but I don't remember the street, and Jack Whittaker, I don't know where he lives.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the second one?
Miss MURRET. That one was Jack--she had two boys.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Jack live? Do you know, offhand?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first boy's name was Emile?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back now to Mancy Winfry, you said she had four children?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are they boys and girls?
Miss MURRET. Three girls and one boy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names and where they are living?
Miss MURRET. Andrew Winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but I am not sure whether it is in Tennessee or Kentucky.
Mr. LIEBELER. You would think in Tennessee somewhere?
Miss MURRET. Yes; or maybe the university--might be Kentucky. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of the three girls and where they live?
Miss MURRET. Anne is one, and I think that she lives in Frankfort, and Nanny, but I don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is just a nickname, and then Jackie.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Jackie?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do Nanny and Jackie live? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. Either in Tennessee or Kentucky. Anne lives--I don't know, either in Tennessee or Kentucky also. But, anyway, two of the daughters live in the same State, and one in the other.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters do you have?
Miss MURRET. Three brothers and one sister.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three brothers and one sister?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What are your brothers' names?
Miss MURRET. Charles, Eugene, John; and my sister is Joyce.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Joyce older than you?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. She is older?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, Charles Murret is a dentist here in the city of New Orleans? Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Eugene Murret is studying at the Catholic seminary?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The seminary is in Mobile, Ala.?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. John Murret does what?
Miss MURRET. He works for the Squibbs Pharmaceutical Co.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is Joyce married?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is her last name?
Miss MURRET. O'Brien.
Mr. LIEBELER. And she lives in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. No; in Beaumont, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and their names were what?
Miss MURRET. One was John.
Mr. LIEBELER. John?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the other?
Miss MURRET. I think Charles. I didn't know them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have children living of which you know?
Miss MURRET. No; they died when they were very young--1918 and 1919, during World War I.
Mr. LIEBELER. They do not have any children surviving them?
Miss MURRET. No; there were none.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, your mother's sister, Marguerite, has three sons?
Miss MURRET. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Lee Harvey Oswald, Robert Oswald, and John Pic?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What contact have you had personally with Marguerite Oswald over the years?
Miss MURRET. Well, when I was younger, she and mother were always on the outs. I remember her then, and then she would move away and come back and occasionally she would stay with us. The last time she moved back to New Orleans was when she lived on--she would stay 1 or 2 days or so----
Mr. LIEBELER. And this last time was when?
Miss MURRET. She had been away, and then I hadn't see her, but when she was on Exchange Alley, I think she visited one day. But when they were on Exchange, living on Exchange Alley, of course, I used to see her occasionally. I mean when she would come over and visit, but then she moved to Texas, and I hadn't seen her for ages.
Mr. LIEBELER. So then you haven't seen her since she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when it was that she lived on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. I don't really remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the address where she lived on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of where Mrs. Oswald had been prior to the time that she moved back to New Orleans and lived on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. I think they were in Texas, but I don't think we heard from them when she was somewhere else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any occasion to meet Lee Harvey Oswald when you saw Marguerite, during the time that she lived on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. Well, then he was going to Beauregard, so I would see him occasionally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Beauregard Junior High School?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember generally on what occasions you would meet Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MURRET. He came over to the house several times to eat, but I don't think he was over very much.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was he then? Do you remember?
Miss MURRET. I don't know--at that time I guess he would be getting out of high school--well, then, you would be getting out of high school when you were about 16, so he might have been around--I don't really know, because I think he was 17 when he got in the service, and it wasn't long after that, so he might have been about 15.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I did not ask you when you were born, and will you tell us?
Miss MURRET. July 14, 1928.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Lee Oswald during the time that you saw him, when his mother lived on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. He was just like anybody else, I guess, but he was very reserved. He was always very reserved, and he liked to be by himself. His reason for that was always that he didn't have the same interests with the other children. I mean, he liked to read, and he loved nature, and he would just go and sit out in the park and meditate, I guess. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about these things, or how did you learn that he had this liking for nature and would sit in the park?
Miss MURRET. I remember it at that time, because he had gotten into a fight with children at Beauregard; however, this is what my mother told me, and I don't remember this, and, anyway, it seems that he was from the North, and so they ridiculed him at the school. I don't know if it was because of the way he was dressed or not, but I actually didn't see anything wrong with his appearance, and so, he was riding in the streetcar one day, I believe, and he sat next to some Negroes. Well, when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth, and loosened his front teeth, I believe. But this I only know from my mother.
Well, it was after that, and then another time, and I don't know if they were teasing him and they said, "Oh, Lee--" and when he turned around, they hit him. It was just actually that even though he was in fights, I think that it wasn't always his fault because I don't think he was an agitator in any way, because he really minded his own business. That much I know, but the incidents I only know from what my mother said. So, at that time I think he made the statement also, that it wasn't his fault, that he was minding his own business and "I don't have the same interests as the other students." They didn't like him because of his accent, and because he sat next to the Negroes, which was one incident. But he was extremely quiet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it in connection with the discussion of these various difficulties that he had, that you learned that he used to just go to the park and sit in the park and observe nature, and was fond of it, interested in that sort of thing?
Miss MURRET. I don't think he told me that--my mother must have told me that, because this came up when they told me this, when that boy, or that is, when some of the students from Beauregard were on TV and said that he was always in fights, and it was then that my mother said, actually, I mean, that she didn't think it was his fault, because she remembered those particular incidents.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you and your mother have had discussions about this after the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the occasion for that discussion was that some of his former----
Miss MURRET. He might have told me that he didn't have anything in common with the other students--I don't remember this. This was a long time ago, and she always had said that, but I may have said that before also. I just don't remember. I know it was this time when she told me that that was the reason for not associating with, the other students, and that they made fun of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this discussion came up when these former students from Beauregard came on the program, or on the air at this TV station and said that Lee Harvey Oswald had always been involved in fights when he was a young man, and the purport of that was that he was belligerent and difficult to get along with, and this is something that you might expect from a fellow like that, but your mother did not have that opinion?
Miss MURRET. And from what I know--it is a long time ago---but he was very quiet, and I know he didn't have many friends, I don't think, but he was not the belligerent type. He just minded his own business, and of course, if he committed this act, I guess it was a perverted mind--I don't know--but he had a certain manner about him that other children never had. I mean he was very refined he really was, and extremely well mannered. I mean he was not an agitator to where you would say that any trouble started with him--I don't know. I mean from what I know, he never was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee gave this impression back during the days that you knew him? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that difference between him and the other boys as far as refinement and being well mannered?
Miss MURRET. As far as manners, yes. Definitely. And I mean with some people that would irritate them--that would irritate many people, I suppose. I don't know, but that I do remember. And, as I said, he was very quiet, so he never talked, and it was very seldom, but he always had this manner, except that when he was a very young child he was very--he was darling, and very outgoing, and a very pretty child. He was adorable, and I mean if you walked in the street with him, everybody would stop because he lived with us until he was two, or a little over two, but if my mother took him to Canal Street, everybody stopped to admire him. He was a very pretty child, and very happy, very cute.
But, at Beauregard, I don't think there was anything different about him and the others, other than he was not--well, other than, as I was saying, he would have this very erect carriage at that time also, and, well, his manner was just different from those people, or from most of those students, I should say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other ways in which Lee differed from his associates or fellow students at that time?
Miss MURRET. No; at that time I don't think because well, I think he wanted to play ball, or other things, but he didn't have the money--it could have been other things. I just don't know. I mean he wanted to play ball, and he didn't have the money to buy the equipment, and this is a long time ago, I am telling you, and I can't remember whether my brothers or somebody gave him some equipment, and he was very appreciative, very thankful, you know. And I mean I guess he couldn't do what the other children did, because he couldn't afford it. I mean he was interested in sports at that time, and he did like others, but I mean he was more reserved than the average person; but he wasn't--I guess he was interested in some of the same things like that, but I mean he wasn't a giddy child, is what I mean.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this television program in which these former fellow students of his at Beauregard indicated that he had been involved in fights when he was at Beauregard. Do you remember what station that program was on?
Miss MURRET. WDSU, I think, and the characters came on over and photographed my house and went all over the neighborhood, asking the neighbors what type of people we were, and what type of person my mother was. And, of course, my mother is a real good woman, so everybody had something nice to say. But it could just have been the other way around. It was absurd, and they pulled everything out, all that the people had said, and they quoted it. It was very, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any of the students?
Miss MURRET. Voebel, Ed Voebel, and he wears glasses, and I think he said that he was friendly with Lee at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any others?
Miss MURRET. Any other people?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that were on the television program?
Miss MURRET. Well, other groups of students, some girls, and a group of girls said that he was belligerent, you know, or that they didn't like the way he dressed, and all this nonsense. But he was the only one who spoke in any detail, and I think he was the only one who was very friendly and got him to join the Civil Air Patrol, in which he was very interested.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this just a news program, or was it a feature program run by a particular reporter or commentator?
Miss MURRET. A reporter.
Mr. LIEBELER. I beg your pardon?
Miss MURRET. Probably just a reporter had called these people in.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember the names of any of the men at WDSU that might be familiar with this that were on the program when these people were interviewed by someone, presumably?
Miss MURRET. My mother knows the names of the men, or the man, I believe, because he wrote this letter and wanted some detailed information.
Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter talked to you personally?
Miss MURRET. The first time my father talked, and they get you off guard, of course, and I don't know what he told them. They asked him if he had stayed at my house, and my father at that time stated that he had, and that was all he said, and after that they came in and they wanted to take pictures and everything else. I asked them to leave, which they did, but for days after they were always coming around, and, of course, we had no comments. The one from WDSU got very irate, so he went up and down the block and interviewed the entire neighborhood, and it was about a half an hour show, around 7 o'clock or so, and had all the comments by the neighbors.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the neighbors remember Lee Oswald?
Miss MURRET. The girl next door probably did because he had stayed there a few days when he came in.
Mr. LIEBELER. He stayed at your house a few days? This was in 1963?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Lee had stayed with you when he was a young boy until the time that he was about 2 years old. You were about 11 or 12 years old at that time?

Miss MURRET. Just about.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of Lee as a young child other than what you have already indicated to us that he was a very pretty child, and that he was adorable----

Miss MURRET. He was adorable, and his personality, he was just--well, he was very bright, you know, very observant, and he was just a darling child.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he gave no indication of any behavior problems?
Miss MURRET. No; he was darling.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything apparently wrong with him at all?
Miss MURRET. And very pleasant, you know, not the type of child who if he didn't get his way would start screaming-- never any of that. He was just a very pleasant child.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances that led to Lee's living with you at that time? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. Well, I think the mother had to work and we kept him.
Mr. LIEBELER. His father had died shortly, or, actually before he was born?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Lee's mother worked during that time?
Miss MURRET. I don't know--she worked for several department stores, and in a hosiery shop that she was managing, and I don't know if it was Jean's Hosiery Shop.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it was hosiery shops or department stores?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, then Lee left your house. Where did he go after that? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. I think that is when he went to Texas. I am not sure if that is when she married Ekdahl, or if she married Ekdahl later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or what?
Miss MURRET. Well, she married Ekdahl when he was very young.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee was very young?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not Lee was ever in an orphanage, an orphan home here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. I know the other two boys were, and we were trying to figure out whether he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are not sure whether he ever was or not?
Miss MURRET. No; I am not.
Mr. LIEBELER. But up until the time that Lee left you and went back either to his mother or to Texas, or wherever he went, your recollection is perfectly clear that Lee was a normal, happy, bright young boy? Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this man Ekdahl, and can you tell us the background on that, and you were probably around 13, 12 or 13 years old, or perhaps even a little older, when Mrs. Oswald married Mr. Ekdahl; is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember ever having met Mr. Ekdahl?
Miss MURRET. I met him once.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the correct spelling of his name?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances surrounding the meeting with Mr. Ekdahl?
Miss MURRET. My circumstances?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; the circumstances?
Miss MURRET. He just stopped over there one day, and I think he and my aunt had John Edward and Robert with him, and they were going to military school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this after they were married?
Miss MURRET. It might have been before--I don't know whether she got married here, or she met him in Texas. I don't really know that. I do know that I saw him on one occasion, and at the time she had the two boys--he had the two boys with him, John and Robert, because, if I remember, they were in uniform. I met him on the one occasion, and if I can remember, they had the two boys with them, and they were both in uniform.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of the circumstances under which Mrs. Oswald married Ekdahl, or met him? What do you know about this relationship?
Miss MURRET. Just nothing other than what my mother has said, that actually she didn't want to get married because he was an older man, and I think he was sick, or something, and it was his sister who said, "Well, why don't you marry him?" So, they got married. I think she was quite hesitant about it, actually.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before Mrs. Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald's father, she was married to a man named Pic, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met him?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything about that marriage?
Miss MURRET. Well, that again, only from what my mother has said, that he did not want any children, and father and she found that very difficult to believe, so they thought that maybe it was just Marguerite saying that. And she loved him, and then when she got pregnant, or, she got pregnant once and lost the baby, and he had threatened to leave if she got pregnant.
So, after she lost the baby, he wanted her to go back to him, which she did. But when she got pregnant with John, he didn't--he said that he would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway, he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was true. And he definitely did not want any children.
So when she got pregnant with John, she left because he didn't want her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant, so she left, or he left. He left her, or she left him--it might be the other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. But I think that when she got pregnant with John, she was probably carrying him, so she left, or maybe he said he was leaving--I just don't know. Anyway, that was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to him or---
Mr. LIEBELER. Either your mother talked to Pic, or, in any event, your mother learned that apparently it was true that Mr. Pic didn't want to have any children?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Oswald, that is, Marguerite, met Mr. Oswald before she was divorced from Pic or separated from Pic, or afterwards?
Miss MURRET. Mr. Oswald?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes?
Miss MURRET. It was a long time after that they were married.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet or know Lee Harvey Oswald's father?
Miss MURRET. I saw him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of him, what he was like?
Miss MURRET. No; just as a person, you know, and I saw a picture later, and I could visualize him perfectly. I was very young then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other recollections of Lee Oswald as a young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? Was the next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a 2-year old? Or did he seem different? Just tell us what impression did you have when you met him again?
Miss MURRET. I don't think I really compared him to the time when he was a child, but he was a little different, as I said, from other children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was a sensitive person?
Miss MURRET. No. What I actually thought was that he, I mean he just had certain interests and I mean because he had been reared like that, and probably--I think is what my mother said, and I don't know, but my aunt had no alternative--I mean they probably did the wrong thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way around. But she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work, and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of--I am saying if he did this--of warping his mind. But it just happened to turn out that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would never talk to any strangers, or anything. He was just reared like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw Marguerite, I think you testified this was during the time that she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, before she went to Texas?

Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of her?
Miss MURRET. Who? Marguerite?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Miss MURRET. When she came back you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; at any time, just what your general impression and feeling about Marguerite Oswald was?
Miss MURRET. I think she is a woman of very good character, but she had a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. I mean if you have an argument with her, I don't think she forgets it immediately. But she also, I guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and I mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and she was not a gossipy type of woman, and I don't know but I worked a few summers in a department store, and I know that for these sales how they--I mean they will slit one another's throats.

Mr. LIEBELER. The sales clerks?
Miss MURRET. Yes. I think that the employees were arguing--she didn't engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued.
Mr. LIEBELER. But other than that you have no----
Miss MURRET. Other than that she was nice in her own way, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was a time in the spring of 1963 when Lee Oswald came to New Orleans, isn't that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you know about that?
Miss MURRET. When he came in the last time, you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That was the next time that you saw Lee Oswald after he and his mother left the Exchange Alley address and went to Texas, isn't that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened in connection with his coming to New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. He telephoned my mother, I think from the bus station. Of course, we didn't even know that he was back, and so he asked if he could stay there a while until he got a job, and he told my mother that he was married, and that he had a baby.
So, my mother asked him if he was alone, because if he had a family she wouldn't have been able to accommodate him. But he was by himself, so she said O.K. He stayed there a while until he found a place on Magazine Street. And then the wife and this lady from Texas came down, and they moved into the place on Magazine Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you live with your mother?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at home during the time that Oswald Lived there during that period?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long was he there?
Miss MURRET. I am not sure whether it was a week or a little over a week.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with him during that time?
Miss MURRET. During the day he was usually looking for a job, and I was working. And in the evening maybe we would talk a little, but nothing in particular. I was usually working on lesson plans, and he went to work about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and the only discussions that I really had was on religion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that during this week?
Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that at the time?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that, and what did you say?
Miss MURRET. He just listened.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say?
Miss MURRET. And then he just said or I assumed that he was an atheist because a brother of mine is in the seminary, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, he knew of your brother in the seminary?
Miss MURRET. Actually, he was more concerned about that, I guess, and so I just said this, this religious discussion. I just set this off because he was not interested at all, and so he just listened and he said that he had his own philosophy, and that he was an atheist. But he didn't argue, or anything, and he just let me rave on for about an hour.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Catholic, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. A practicing Catholic?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you expressed that to Oswald?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As best as you can recall, all he did was listen and then he indicated that he had his own way?
Miss MURRET. Which he didn't express.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he did tell you that he was an atheist?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into any further details than that?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any feeling about him when you had this discussion with him? I mean, did it seem kind of strange to you that someone would just sit and let you go on at such length on a subject like that, and then not really respond to it?
Miss MURRET. That was typical of Lee.
Mr. LIEBELER. Typical of Lee?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't express any disgust or short temperedness with your----
Miss MURRET. No. Oh, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other discussions or confrontations that you might have had?
Miss MURRET. That was the only time that I had had any chance to talk with him, and that was the first day that he came--believe it was. After that, on Saturdays, or that particular Saturday he was out all day looking around for a job. And then on that Sunday he wanted to know where his father was buried, and he wanted to locate some of his relatives, because he had said that when Marina's family had asked him about his family, he didn't know anything at all, he didn't know what descent he was, and he said he realized, or he missed not being close to his relatives, because he didn't know any of them other than us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you about this or----
Miss MURRET. My mother.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were there at the time?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did your mother tell him?
Miss MURRET. My mother checked the telephone directory, and I think most were dead. Harvey Oswald, who was his godfather, I believe, is dead. He did find one relative and he went to see her.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was her name?
Miss MURRET. I don't know, but that might have been his wife. My mother would know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whose wife? Harvey Oswald's?
Miss MURRET. They were very old. That was his father's brother, but they are all dead. But it might be one of the wives who is still living, and he went out there to see her, and she gave him a picture of his father. And then he went to visit the grave.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of his father?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about that at all?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the picture? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. I think he might have told my mother about it, and I think he might have told me, but I was there that Sunday and he caught the bus and went to the other house, and this old lady gave him the picture of his father. And he just showed it, and that was all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a large picture or----
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did he take it with him when he left, when he moved over to the apartment on Magazine Street?
Miss MURRET. Yes. I guess so----
Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't seen it around the house since?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned something about when he caught the bus and went to the other aunt?
Miss MURRET. You say to the aunt?
Mr. LIEBELER. To this aunt who gave him the picture?
Miss MURRET. Well, I mean he left and I know he caught the bus.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem concerned about his ability to find a job?
Miss MURRET. He wanted to find a job so Marina could come down here. I know he was looking--I mean he seemed like he really wanted to find one. And when he found it, he seemed to be very happy about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you----
Miss MURRET. I mean the one at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he came to New Orleans to look for a job?
Miss MURRET. He had said that Marina wanted to be near the sea, and she thought she would like New Orleans. He didn't tell me that; he told my mother.
Mr. LIEBELER. You knew at this time that he had been to the Soviet Union, did you not?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his experiences in Russia?
Miss MURRET. I asked him how he liked it, and he showed me a few photographs, my mother and I, of where he lived. And that is when he said about the family, that people were very family conscious----
Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia?
Miss MURRET. Yes; I don't know--I think he was citing one experience where he was traveling, or something, and there were some people who had less than he had, and invited him in, which they would probably do here, but just never had occasion to, and they had very little, but what they had they shared with him. That is when he said that he was very embarrassed because when they asked him what descent he was, he said he didn't know, didn't know nothing at all about his family, and that is why he was determined to locate his various relatives here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he went to Russia in the first place?
Miss MURRET. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and I saw his brother, John. And my sister had written me a letter just before that and said that Marguerite had not heard from Lee, and that she had sent some money and the envelope was returned. I didn't know where he had gone, and I guess they just assumed that I knew. My mother didn't want to worry me probably, because all the scandal was brewing in all the papers, and everything. I went to visit John, and his wife told me at that time ----
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was John living at that time?
Miss MURRET. In Japan.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were in Japan at that time?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing in Japan?
Miss MURRET. I taught school over there.
Mr. LIEBELER. In an English speaking school?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did John tell you that Lee had gone to Russia?
Miss MURRET. He didn't tell me--his wife told me. So I didn't bring the subject up at all with John. I mean we weren't invading anybody's privacy at all, and if he wanted to say something, he would say. And I know that she said that they were very upset because this put him over the barrel, and he has a family, and he was very embarrassed.
Mr. LIEBELER. John was?
Miss MURRET. Of course, and they had three children, and I mean it was in Stars and Stripes.
Mr. LIEBELER. John was in the Air Force at that time?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't bring the subject up of Lee at all as to why he went?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate anything about his experiences in Russia other than what you have already told us?
Miss MURRET. The only thing he said was--I just didn't know any of this would happen, and I didn't know he would be leaving and I thought that he would say what he wanted to say, because I don't believe in bombarding somebody with questions, I really don't, and what they want to say, they say, and what they don't want to say, they don't say. So, anyway, he said that he had better quarters than the average person because he was an American, and they wanted to create a good impression on him. Other than about the family and showing me a few photographs, that is all he said. And he said that he had met Marina at this dance, and he worked in the factory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of factory?
Miss MURRET. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he did?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid?
Miss MURRET. No; maybe he did, but I wouldn't know what it was, anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any travels that he had in the Soviet Union?
Miss MURRET. Well, just that he said, and I don't know where he was going or where he was when he said it, that these people let him spend the night there and that they had less than he had. So if that was on the outskirts, or where it was, I don't really know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak any foreign language?
Miss MURRET. I studied French and Spanish, but was hopeless.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any school that he might have gone to when he was in Russia, any training that he might have gotten?
Miss MURRET. No sir; he didn't say anything at all about any kind of training. When he first came out, I couldn't understand how he had gotten out, in the first place.
Mr. LIEBELER. How he had gotten out of Russia to come back, you mean?
Miss MURRET. With a Russian wife, and he did say her father was---was he a Russian officer? Anyway----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say her father----
Miss MURRET. He was, or she might have said that in her broken English, so I couldn't conceive of how they had gotten out of Russia, and how he had access to Russia, I mean to work there, et cetera, and then just to be allowed to leave, with a Russian wife, and her father being in the Army. And I think that she had an uncle--I don't know--but I think it was in the papers, or in some magazine recently that he is with the Intelligence Service in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Her uncle?
Miss MURRET. Yes; he, supposedly, was the one who helped him to get out. So, that I couldn't figure out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him about it? Did you ask Lee about that?
Miss MURRET. Yes; and he said he'd had a tough time. That is about the only thing I did ask him, and he said he'd had a very difficult time getting out, and he had to wait for a particular length of time until everything went through, and he knew that since, or if he had not had a wife, he could have gotten out sooner, but he had to wait on her papers, and by that time they'd had a baby, but, anyway, I wasn't satisfied, but by that time I couldn't understand how they got out. But, I said, well, if they let them out, they went through the Embassy obviously, and if they were doing things he was not supposed to do, they would be trailing him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought this?
Miss MURRET. Well, any time anybody comes out of Russia, you think it, naturally.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't say anything to Lee about it?
Miss MURRET. No; definitely not. I had just asked him if it was difficult to get out, and so then I said, well, if he were up to anything, you know, they would obviously be trailing him, so we could just forget about that because he might really have realized that he made a mistake, and he was coming back over here. I mean, you don't try to antagonize him--I mean you try to help him, and figure, thinking that if he realizes that he made a mistake and he wanted to come back here, you would do everything you could to help him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had been given trouble about getting out of Russia by the Russians or by the Americans? Or did he distinguish between them because he thought he had been harassed by the two authorities?
Miss MURRET. I don't think he really said, but I don't remember that he--I think, or I thought he meant the Russians, because the Americans gave him the money, evidently they were willing to give it to him anytime.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the fact that the Americans had given him the money? Did he tell you that?
Miss MURRET. He told my mother that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any more about it than just that he had received money from the United States? Did he tell you any more details, or did your mother repeat them to you?
Miss MURRET. Well, and then I read something about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Life, that he had renounced his citizenship, but that the American Embassy said that he didn't, and that that was why he got back here; or that if he had renounced it, he couldn't have gotten back, so he was an alien. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about this at all, or have any conversation with Lee about it before the assassination?
Miss MURRET. About what?
Mr. LIEBELER. About this time that he renounced his citizenship and these difficulties?
Miss MURRET. Well, they had articles in the papers that my mother showed me after I came home, Fort Worth papers, that he threw the passport on the desk. But I didn't ask him about that at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't tell you anything about it?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that he had been able to obtain money from the State Department or whomever he obtained it from to return to the United States?

Miss MURRET. Extraordinary in the fact that I didn't know how he could get out with a Russian wife and baby, whose uncle was in the military, and an uncle I don't know what he was at the time--but I thought he was affiliated with the military, but I have read something since then that the father was with the intelligence service. But then I didn't really think too much that--well, your first reaction, but then you don't think too much about that after because he had to go through the Embassy. So you figure that it was one of two things, he either really realized that he wanted to live here again, or they let him out for a purpose. And if they did, then they would certainly be trailing him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you that he might be an agent of the Soviet Union?
Miss MURRET. At first; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first----
Miss MURRET. The first reaction.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first----
Miss MURRET. Well, the fact that he got out.
Mr. LIEBELER. But when you say "at first," you don't mean at first, after the assassination? You mean at first, after you saw him?
Miss MURRET. After he came out.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't really think about that too much until he came here in 1963, or had you considered it prior to that time?
Miss MURRET. We didn't know he was out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Until he came here?
Miss MURRET. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was back from Russia at all?
Miss MURRET. He just telephoned mother and my mother said, "I didn't even know you were back." And he said, "I have been back for--I don't know--probably a year."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with your mother or anybody else in your family about the possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Miss MURRET. As I said, I dispelled that immediately because I thought, well, if he was, they would certainly be trailing him. So, I mean you can't go around with suspicion like that, or, I mean certainly the American Embassy should know what is going on. So, if that were the case, well, they would be on his trail. And, if not, well, he was definitely sincere. I mean, you don't try to antagonize or constantly throw up past mistakes, in case he, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. So you considered the question briefly and dismissed it for the reasons you state?
Miss MURRET. Yes; but just the first reaction would be, how did he get out?
Mr. LIEBELER. And, as you have stated, the reason for your thinking of the question in the first place was because of the apparent ease with which he was able to leave the Soviet Union with a Russian wife?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it cause you any concern to associate with him or have anything to do with him at all after you considered the question that he might have been a Russian agent? I mean, you said that you dismissed it because you assumed if he was, he was being trailed, or the authorities would be in touch with him, but did it concern you that they might associate you with Oswald, or identify you in any way?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. It did not?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the first week that Lee was at your home, he rented an apartment and moved out? Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he left your house?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he found an apartment?
Miss MURRET. He told me about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he or did he not tell you personally?
Miss MURRET. I don't remember whether I was there or not. Yes; I think I might have been. Yes; I was, because I think he came home and said that it was a lovely place, but he didn't know whether Marina would like it, because it had high ceilings, and she didn't like high ceilings. But he liked it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come out to your house at this time?
Miss MURRET. Well, when they came in, the lady from Texas brought her----
Mr. LIEBELER. In a station wagon?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know her name?
Miss MURRET. I know now; yes. It was Paine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know her at that time?
Miss MURRET. No; he introduced me, I think, or she introduced herself--I don't remember--because I was getting ready to go out and that was when I was in and out, getting dressed. But he also had referred to her just as Marina's friend in Texas, and I told her it was very nice to meet her.
Mr. LIEBELER. They actually came there to your house before Lee moved out, or after he moved out?
Miss MURRET. He had moved out, I think, he himself, and then he came to my house, and then from there they were going to go, so they wouldn't get lost--so they could find the directions, or something. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. So Marina and Mrs. Paine came to your house and they went from there, went to the apartment on Magazine then?
Miss MURRET. They stayed there a very short while and Marina was petrified----
Mr. LIEBELER. What was she petrified about?
Miss MURRET. Well, on meeting us for the first time, and the language barrier, and the baby was cross and crying because of all the people there, I guess, and probably tired. I think Marina was nervous or probably thinking that we would think that it was a bad or a spoiled child. So they left very shortly after, and I don't think Marina ever came in the back. Mrs. Paine came in the back to get a root beer, and I can't remember if that is when she introduced herself, or I was in the front when they introduced them, or not. I met Marina when she came into the living room. I don't remember whether he introduced me to Mrs. Paine formally, or whether she introduced herself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there at that time?
Miss MURRET. Yes; he had moved out----
Mr. LIEBELER. But he had come out, that is, come back to your house to meet Marina and Mrs. Paine?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina?
Miss MURRET. She doesn't speak English. On that day we hardly said anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was indicated to you that she could not speak English; is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to talk to Marina in English?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did it go?
Miss MURRET. It was exasperating.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she understand any English?
Miss MURRET. I think she understood more than she could speak, but still there is a lot she doesn't understand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that she was not very proficient in the English language?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to communicate anything in any way with her at all in English?
Miss MURRET. Just petty things, you know, like if she would eat something, how to make that, and "no like," or through mannerisms and small words to say a few things. She also commented, you know, when they would eat over there a few times on the food, but other than that, she----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Mrs. Paine?
Miss MURRET. Mrs. Paine? I don't know--my mother had said that Lee had been invited to this professor's house, or something, to show slides, a professor out at Tulane, a professor of languages.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? Is it Riseman?
Miss MURRET. That was when he was living on Magazine, and I think they telephoned my mother to find out if anybody had called the house for an application, or different things, and I think he said he was going that night, that they were suppose to show slides. Now, this man had one daughter, I think, who was in Russia, and he was a friend of Mrs. Paine's.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would the name Kloepfer sound like the----
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about Riseman?
Miss MURRET. No; I don't know the language professor's name.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think your mother would remember?
Miss MURRET. I don't think so, because I think it was the other Secret Service man who tried to get her to remember and she couldn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this professor, he was a professor of what?
Miss MURRET. Languages.
Mr. LIEBELER. What language? Russian?
Miss MURRET. I don't know if it was only Russian, or what, or some other language. He just teaches, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any idea where he lived?
Miss MURRET. Who? The professor? No. So then it was just that he had a daughter in Russia, and I was just wondering why she got to know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?
Miss MURRET. I often wonder how it was that she spoke Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who? Mrs. Paine?
Miss MURRET. Yes; and then it came out in the paper, or it was in Time magazine, or something, that she was a Quaker, so I discarded all those ideas also, claiming where she was, I guess, just purely interested in the language, and you would see people who spoke that language.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine? Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine in any way?
Miss MURRET. At first, because she sought all of the Russian speaking people, and she spoke Russian herself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you indicate that the Secret Service had discussed this with you about the professor?
Miss MURRET. No; my mother told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother told this to the Secret Service man?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when she talked to the Secret Service man?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this professor that we could use to find out who he was, or who he is?
Miss MURRET. No; I don't. But it probably would be easy enough to find, if he has a daughter who is a student over there, and I don't think that that would be too difficult to find.
Mr. LIEBELER. After he and Marina had moved into the apartment on Magazine Street, did you ever go to the apartment?
Miss MURRET. I just drove him over there once or--I think we drove him home once or twice.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever inside of the apartment?
Miss MURRET. Once I went in the back part.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place was it?
Miss MURRET. Well, they had a back part of the house, and I never did know whether it was a double, or what, or just the back part was arranged to make an apartment" But he had called one Sunday afternoon and said that Marina wanted to come over there. So I think we picked them up in the afternoon and brought them, but usually if they came, they took the bus, and we always took them home.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you see the Oswalds after that?
Miss MURRET. On Magazine?
Mr. LIEBELER. That you recall? Yes?
Miss MURRET. I think they came over one day, one Saturday, and then a half a day on Sunday, or this might have been the same day--I don't know--and Labor Day, because I was not here from the beginning of July until September.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding then that the last time you saw Oswald was on Labor Day, 1963, which would have been early in September?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the time that you went crabbing with him?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the occasion that you met him on Labor Day? What did you do?
Miss MURRET. They called up, or Lee called up and said that Marina wanted to come over, that she was tired of sitting at home. But my mother had said, because the last time that they were there and they were there all day, with the language barrier, my mother was exhausted, so she told him to come in the afternoon. And this they did, about 3 or 4 they came over in the bus.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come over on the bus?
Miss MURRET. Yes; and then we took them back.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go crabbing with him? You did, did you not?
Miss MURRET. I think it was on a Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. So this would have been before July, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you have indicated that you were not in New Orleans during July or August of 1963?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who also went on this crabbing expedition?
Miss MURRET. Just Marina and I and he. I think the baby stayed at my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you can recall about that?
Miss MURRET. We went to the lake, and Lee was doing all the crabbing, of course, and we didn't have any crabs, so I just sat there with Marina. And then we walked over to the coke machine and got a coke, and I got some cigarettes, and I remember she said that she didn't smoke, and that Lee didn't want her to smoke. So we came on back and Marina told him something in Russian, and he started to laugh. And he said, "Do you know what she said?" I said, "No." He said, or he was saying that women are all alike, because she was telling him that here you spend or you only could afford, I think he had two nets, and that was all that he had money for, and the meat, so she was telling him, "You spend the money for the nets and the meat, and you are spending all of your time catching nothing, when we could have gone down to the French Market and got them for the same price." He said, "They are all alike, you know, Russians, American, typical woman." I just sat there with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever catch any crabs that day?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that was said or that happened on that day that was worthy of any note?
Miss MURRET. She didn't say anything and he was walking up and down----
Mr. LIEBELER. Lee was?
Miss MURRET. And I was sitting on the steps with them, and it was only an hour and a half.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were not able to talk to Marina?
Miss MURRET. I said a little bit, but nothing--I mean, you couldn't really talk, and you would just exhaust yourself with petty things, you know, word for word.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did this crabbing expedition come to pass in the first place? Did Lee call you and ask you to take him, or----
Miss MURRET. No; I think that they were over there and he just said, I don't know, maybe just that they were going to the lake. I don't remember. And then they asked me, stopped and asked me if I wanted to----
Mr. LIEBELER. But when this started out, Lee and Marina were over at your house on French? And Marina and Lee left from there and went on this expedition?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Marina and Lee got along with each other?
Miss MURRET. Well, as I am saying, at first, I had no idea, when he first came out, but then after I met them together, and then since the assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running back because that happened, but after that time, I am saying that some statements came out that he was very strict with her--I don't know. You don't know in anybody else's house, I guess, but from all indications they were perfectly happy. He was very devoted to Marina. He seemed to love his child very much. And as I say, I am saying that he was very well-mannered, he really was. And I mean if any other girl sat down, he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in and out, and he does that for everybody. And, I don't know, she just seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when I really thought that my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that probably I--and he seemed to--I don't .know, but they just seemed to be very family conscious and devoted. In fact, they were a real cute couple.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything about that that struck you as peculiar or out of the ordinary?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of them having any marital difficulties of any kind while they were here?
Miss MURRET. Only what I read.
Mr. LIEBELER. Only what you read in the paper after the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina mentioned to you that Lee didn't want her to smoke, did you detect any resentment on Marina's part over that?
Miss MURRET. No; not at all. It was just that a lot of husbands don't want their wives to smoke, for that matter. I mean you can't--I couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but I mean she seemed to be very nice to older people. She also, when they did eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. You know, "Don't, Marina, I won't let you do anything like that," and when my mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. And, I mean, she didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she had smoked before that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartment or----
Miss MURRET. She didn't like it.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't like the apartment?
Miss MURRET. She said she, "No like. No like."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you understand----
Miss MURRET. Well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and Lee had said that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. In fact, when they went, she didn't like it. She said that she liked low ceilings.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you said that you were in the apartment on one occasion, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it an appealing place, or was it decently furnished?
Miss MURRET. My mother and I had gone there, and I thought it was very nice for the money, actually.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he was paying for it?
Miss MURRET. Sixty-five.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it in?
Miss MURRET. On Magazine I don't know about Magazine, but I don't think Magazine is too good. But the apartment was all newly furnished. They had a new icebox, I believe, and the other furniture was all refinished, and the walls newly painted.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that you had discussed religion with Lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all?
Miss MURRET. He never mentioned anything of any political significance at all, never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Never said anything about President Kennedy?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally?
Miss MURRET. No; but I can't remember whether it was---if that was before or if it was on that program, where he said something complimentary about Kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else.
Mr. LIEBELER. What program are you referring to?
Miss MURRET. That might have been when they showed when he was interviewed after the Fair Play for Cuba, because it was after the assassination that they reran that.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was a television program?
Miss MURRET. Yes; television.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that you saw it after the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall, but you think the man said something complimentary about Kennedy on that?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And other than that you never heard him speak of President Kennedy?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about Civil Rights, and particularly the Negro?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when he was younger that he made it a point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some Negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it was just a rebellious kind of thing?
Miss MURRET. I don't think he knew any better. He didn't know the cars were segregated, I don't think. I don't know. I just remember my mother telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know, defiantly--I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned you were not in New Orleans during July and August of 1963, and where were you?
Miss MURRET. I went to Mexico and all through Central America and Panama.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you travel by yourself?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you travel?
Miss MURRET. By bus and station wagon.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your own station wagon?
Miss MURRET. No; public transportation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald went to Mexico in September?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read about that in the newspapers after the assassination.
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But prior to that time you didn't know that he either planned to go to Mexico or he was going to Mexico, or had gone to Mexico, or was even thinking about going to Mexico?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet anybody on this trip to Mexico that had any connection. with, as far as you know, Lee Oswald, either at that time or subsequently?
Miss MURRET. On this trip, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of the trip? Was it just basically a tourist operation?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a tourist operation, you say?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you returned from Mexico to New Orleans, you learned, did you not, that Oswald had managed to get himself in jail during the summer?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that?
Miss MURRET. My family.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your family told you?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did they tell you?
Miss MURRET. Well, just, in other words, he had the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets, and they took him to jail. And my sister had to go and get him out. And, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they decided to have it then. So, anyway, she was in the hospital for that, and I think she said that Lee came up to see her--but I don't know if it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on--came to see her at the hospital--and then that must have been the date when he left and was distributing the pamphlets.
So he called up and he told Joyce that he was in jail, and to come and get him out. She didn't know what to do because she had her two children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take care of the children. So she said, "Call me back, or something" or she said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't there. Well, I don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my mother and asked my mother what to do. So, anyway, she went back to the station, and she said, "Before I get him out of there, I want you to tell me what he is in there for." So the policeman told her, he said, not to get excited because, "I've handled these cases before, and it is not as bad as it seems," and all that. And she didn't know whether to get him out or not, since he was involved in that. And I don't know if they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and he had him paroled.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the friend? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. Of course, he didn't know--that was Emile Bruneau, who is a very prominent man. He didn't know Lee at all, and that was just a personal favor. He is very active in the city, I mean, and this was just a personal favor.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Lee about this episode when you saw him on Labor Day?
Miss MURRET. I didn't ask ask him anything else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee drive an automobile?
Miss MURRET. As far as I know, he didn't drive, and my brother took him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an hour. But he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. And whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, did your brother ever let Lee take his car and go by himself.
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was your brother John?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you how well Oswald did?
Miss MURRET. Well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able to drive. But I doubt, and I don't think there was any traffic--I think it was in the park.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Mrs. Paine again when she came to pick up Marina and take her back to Texas?
Miss MURRET. I only saw her once and that was for about 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in May 1963?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee had lost his job with the Reily Coffee Co. sometime during the summer?
Miss MURRET. I guess he did--I don't know if that was after I came back or before, when he lost it. I don't know when he lost it. When did he lose it?
Mr. LIEBELER. He lost it in July, sometime, while you were gone.
Miss MURRET. Well, 2 weeks at my sister's about July 1, and from there, 13 days, because the 14th is my birthday, I left.
Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that he had lost it when you got back to New Orleans? When you got back to New Orleans, you knew that he had lost the job and was unemployed?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he looking around for another job? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. I don't know. I only saw them once after that, and that was Labor Day. I didn't ask him anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you mentioned that you were in Japan?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you out of the United States, and where did you go, and what did you do?
Miss MURRET. Three and a half years, and I started out on my way and went to Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, which was not a part of Malaysia at the time, Malaya, and straight on around, just following the bottom--I went all through, Beirut, the Holy Land, Egypt, Cyprus, and all through Europe and back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work during the time you were gone on this trip?
Miss MURRET. I worked in Australia and New Zealand and Japan.
Mr. LIEBELER. As a teacher?
Miss MURRET. As a teacher; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach in Australian schools or----
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any trouble with the teacher certification problems, or don't they have that problem in those places?
Miss MURRET. Well, it depends what your field is. I was teaching science, which is the same--they have a teacher's college which is 2 years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a science teacher?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you heard about the assassination?
Miss MURRET. At Juno.
Mr. LIEBELER. In school?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that Lee had been arrested in connection with it?
Miss MURRET. After I came home one evening, because when I heard it, I was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me that he had been shot. So they all had their radios on, and I ran over back to the class, and I listened to it. And I remember the first part, where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that they had somebody else, 30 years old, and I didn't even hear at that time anything of having Lee at all, until I got back home. I think that was because I had left school about 3:30, or maybe a little earlier, and up until that time I don't think they had had something about Lee because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they thought was a foreigner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Lee had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Slightly!
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you were very surprised?
Miss MURRET. Of course.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe that he could have done it?
Miss MURRET. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't believe he could have done it, based on your knowledge of him and your association with him?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing like that, or capable of it, either one?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have been thinking about it, I am sure, since this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive that Oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it, have you not?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you come up with anything?
Miss MURRET. Well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did, and I don't really know why, but I don't think, as some people said, because he was jealous of Kennedy and all that Kennedy stood for. I don't think it would have been that. I don't know what he would gain by killing the President when somebody else could take over the Government just as effectively--I mean with our governmental system. So, if he did it, it would--I don't know, unless it was to discredit America in the eyes of the world.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you can't think of anything, that is, any personal motive that he might have had?
Miss MURRET. No. You mean envy, or something, or desire to----
Mr. LIEBELER. For self-aggrandizement to draw attention to himself?
Miss MURRET. No; and most people have that opinion. I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never struck you as being that way?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as being just the ordinary, normal human being?
Miss MURRET. He struck me as being perfectly content with being the way he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had with the coffee company?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know?
Miss MURRET. No; I don't know if it was a mechanical one or----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be satisfied with his job?
Miss MURRET. He said it was all right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he impress you as having strong feelings about things or not?
Miss MURRET. He didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really didn't. I mean once, when I asked him several things about Russia, he said nothing other than what I told you, in very general terms. I asked him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't any different from any other factory. Most people seem to think that he had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. But he didn't strike me as being that way. I think he really thought he was somebody.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as being a person of integrity?
Miss MURRET. Perfectly content--I mean he thought he was extremely intelligent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was?
Miss MURRET. I thought that he was very articulate, but I mean I never discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not he knew what he was talking about.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you form the impression that he was very articulate? You had the impression that he didn't talk very much?
Miss MURRET. No; but I mean his accent was very good. I mean he pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced, and he didn't talk very--he was just very quiet. If he didn't want to answer something, he didn't answer. You could be with somebody like that a year, and you would get no answers--if he didn't care to give them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all?
Miss MURRET. Well, I regarded him because he was my cousin, I guess. I mean I wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if I could have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. I mean he didn't have too easy a life. I liked Lee. He didn't strike me as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Lee would be liked by most people?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?
Miss MURRET. Because he wasn't friendly. He would be liked by a certain type of person and hated by other types.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is the thing I am trying to bring out, and it is a difficult thing to come at, and I wish you would tell me what you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to frame a question with regard to it. We all know that sometimes people respond differently to different human beings, since each person is different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing many times. According to some of the information we have Lee was not liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him, but you didn't think Lee would be liked by people generally. I wish you would just tell us really what you think about this, and why.
Miss MURRET. Well, because of his manner--I think people thought that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock him down a peg. And his entire presentation, I mean his walk--he was very erect--he minded his own business, and I don't think he liked petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this (assassination). Anyway, just like the way in the Army; they said that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the college graduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought they knew more just because they had a degree. Lee didn't have a degree or anything like that, but I think he was much more intelligent than the grades obviously indicated, although, as I said, I never really discussed anything with him. My theory of it was that he was intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this other group. And I don' t know if that--that is as clear as mud, I guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he didn't like them.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that was very much of a problem?
Miss MURRET. Right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a different type child, you know. I mean, like I am saying, he was not a rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on Exchange Alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you know. But he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or anything like that, you know. I guess, the other ones, he just didn't have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like that. And I guess he could live within himself, because he trained himself like that. I mean he never played with the other kids, and when he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading this stuff, I don't know, but, anyway, he read everything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he was reading anything on Marxism or communism?
Miss MURRET. I don't know anything about that unless--anyhow, he was trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read a novel, and that is how he was trained.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think now, with the information that you have, both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of Lee Oswald, do you think Lee Oswald actually did kill the President?
Miss MURRET. All the evidence points to him, but he just never struck me as capable of that particular act. I never thought he would be--I never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification, unless, as I am saying, somebody else was with him. But then, I don't think he was--well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else could ever get through to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did this impression that you have of Lee change any when you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and had some difficulty out in the street?
Miss MURRET. Well, then, after that, I said, this kid--well, I just thought he was probably harmless, and just then I said, well, he is just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over Canal Street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. So, I mean, that type, I probably thought he was harmless. And he was just shooting his mouth off. I mean, he didn't deny anything----
Mr. LIEBELER. And that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem inconsistent to you?
Miss MURRET. I don't understand what you mean.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said the fellow was pretty quiet?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he stayed pretty much to himself?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then here you find him in the street handing out leaflets in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and did you hear that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. No; he said that after on television, or all of that came out after. He must have been interviewed by WDSU shortly thereafter; however----
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know?
Miss MURRET. I don't know whether they showed that the first time, and they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was because my family had told me---well, the policeman had told my sister, well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not against the law, just the fact that they are disturbing the peace. I mean these are just boys---that's what he said, "they are just boys, and I handle a lot of them like that?" And then after I saw it on television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he was a Marxist.
Mr. LIEBELER. My question is basically, did this surprise you, based on the past experiences that you had with him? And did it surprise you that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets?
Miss MURRET. Yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then, after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of course. But I mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly after he met Marina. But then in other theories that were expounded, that perhaps because he was turned down by Russia and then turned down by Fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want him to work for them, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the theory that you have thought of since the assassination?
Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. This is a theory that you have thought up since the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Well, because everybody yells--it just didn't strike me, so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical one. But then, on the other hand, and I know now that I am looking back on all this, and don't think that Khrushchev really turned him down at first, and then let him have access to all of Russia, you know. I don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to Russia?
Miss MURRET. Nothing. I didn't press him on that, because I figured even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know, do nothing but knock it. He wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that big of a mistake. I don't think he could have realized that, because, I mean, as I am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. And as an individual he never did really seek company. But then, no Communist lives like the Communists, anyway--they live like capitalists, and just preach the doctrine.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think you indicated in response to my question as to whether or not you thought that Lee had done it, that it all looks very much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you believe? Do you believe he did it?
Miss MURRET. On circumstantial evidence, but I don't--there have been so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns and one person supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had already been mounted; so, if there were, I--it could have been more than one shot actually, or I mean shot from more than one place.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee in possession of a weapon of any kind when he was here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any rifle in his apartment?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever mention that he had a rifle?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you can remember about Lee that I didn't ask you about that you think the Commission should know? If you can, I would like to have you put it in the record.
Miss MURRET. I don't know of any.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times?
Miss MURRET. Once. My mother and I at the same time----
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there?
Miss MURRET. I think the FBI was there twice primarily for my mother, and I talked to one of the Secret Service men once myself. My mother was there, I mean, but he was talking to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection that is all, the only time that either the Secret Service or the FBI have been in touch with you?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add at this point, I don't have any other questions. I would like to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. I want to express on behalf of the Commission our thanks for coming here and being as cooperative as you have been.