TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN

The President's Commission met 9:25 a.m, on February 27, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members. Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Paul W. Leech, counsel to James Herbert Martin; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Let the record show that Mr. Martin, first that Commissioners Dulles and Ford and I are present.
Mr. Martin, the witness, is here with his lawyer; would you state your name for the record, please?
Mr. LEECH. Paul Leech.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Leech, I understand you are a partner of Mr. Thorne who was here representing Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I will just read an opening statement to you that we make for the record and for the benefit of the witness each time we convene. On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the

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facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination." On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission, or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission. The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. James Herbert Martin who has acted as the business manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. In view of Mr. Martin's close association with Mrs. Oswald it is the intention of this Commission to ask Mr. Martin questions concerning this association and any and all matters related to the assassination, and to the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Martin has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. Mr. Martin has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining of witnesses and the receiving of evidence. I should also like to read into the record at this time a copy of a letter dated February 22, 1964, to Mr. Martin from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, which reads as follows: "Dear Mr. Martin: "Confirming discussions between the staff of this Commission and John M. Thorne, Esquire, your counsel, we hereby request that you appear before this Commission at 9:00 a.m., on February 27, 1964, at Room 400, 200 Maryland Avenue, NE., Washington, D.C., for the purpose of giving sworn testimony concerning your association with Mrs. Marina Oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. "You are hereby requested to produce before this Commission at that time any and all books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to your association with Marina Oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald including, but not limited to, those books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to (1) your business dealings with Marina Oswald, (2) your activities as Marina Oswald's business representative, (3) Marina Oswald's business dealings with others, (4) your dealings with Marina Oswald in connection with the preparation of any testimony, interviews, public appearances, story, article, or other narrative concerning her personal history or the assassination of President Kennedy and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and (5) your dealings with Marina Oswald in connection with her appearance before this Commission. "The Commission is authorized to reimburse you for your expenses in connection with your appearance before the Commission, and the necessary details will be arranged when you are here. "Attached herewith are copies of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, S.J. Res. 137--88th Cong., 1st Session, and the rules of this Commission in connection with hearings conducted for the purpose of taking of testimony or the production of evidence." I assume, gentlemen, you did receive a copy of that letter?
Mr. LEECH. Yes, we did.
The CHAIRMAN. I will not be able to be here at all times today because we have, we are hearing arguments in the Court at 10 o'clock and I must leave to be there, but Mr. Dulles anticipates being here all day so in my absence he will conduct hearings.

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Congressman Ford has some unfinished business at the Congress as I have at the Court so he probably will not be here all through the day.
Mr. Martin, will you please rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear in this proceeding before the Commission to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MARTIN. I do.
Mr. LEECH. Your Honor, who are these other gentlemen here. I haven't been introduced to them.
The CHAIRMAN. This is Mr. Charles Rhyne, who represents the American Bar Association.
Mr. LEECH. Former president of the American Bar Association?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, and Mr. Murray who is also in the Public Defender's office of the District of Columbia.
Mr. RANKIN. He represents Mr. Walter Craig, too.
The CHAIRMAN. He and Mr. Rhyne represent Mr. Walter Craig.
Mr. LEECH. Who is that?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Craig is the President of the Bar Association and was asked to act in Order to protect or advise the Commission as to any interests of Lee H. Oswald because of--you probably saw the notice in the paper and so forth.
Mr. LEECH. You represent the man from Arizona?
Mr. RHYNE. Walter E. Craig, President of the American Bar Association.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Storey is the representative of the Attorney General of Texas.
Mr. LEECH. He is Dean of the Southern Methodist Law School.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Of Course, this is Professor Redlich of our staff. And this is the reporter. All right, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination. Will you proceed, Mr. Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Leech, does the reporter have your full name?
Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; he does.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, will you tell us your name, please?
Mr. MARTIN. James Herbert Martin.
Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live?
Mr. MARTIN. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. RANKIN. How long have you lived there?
Mr. MARTIN. Since 1956.
Mr. RANKIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. MARTIN. Hotel executive.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you now connected with the Six Flags Motel?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you at one time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And during what period?
Mr. MARTIN. From May of 1962 until January 1, 1964.
Mr. RANKIN. What was your position with that institution?
Mr. MARTIN. Resident manager.
Mr. RANKIN. While you were at the Six Flags Inn, did you become acquainted with Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. About when was the first time that you met her?
Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was November 24.
Mr. RANKIN. Of what year?
Mr. MARTIN. 1963.
Mr. RANKIN. And will you tell us how that acquaintance started?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was called by the Tarrant County sheriff on Sunday.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Lew Evans.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. About 11 o'clock in the morning, and they wanted a room where they could question the Oswald family. I told them they could have it, and about four o'clock, I guess, four or four-thirty, I don't know the exact time they

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came in with the whole family, and we gave them several rooms to accommodate the family.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you introduced to Marina Oswald at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't believe I was ever really introduced to her.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to know her then?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, just through association.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you know the county sheriff before that?
Mr. MARTIN. Vaguely, not to any great extent.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any particular reason why he chose your establishment?
Mr. MARTIN. Because of the central location between Dallas and Fort Worth and the isolation of it.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time who came to stay with you at the Six Flags Inn, Marina and some of her family?
Mr. MARTIN. Well Marina and the two children and Robert and Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they have several suites there?
Mr. MARTIN. They had one room, well, one suite, room 423 and 424 and then we gave them two other rooms for the Secret Service.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone make arrangements with you besides the county sheriff about how this would be handled?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Secret Service.
Mr. RANKIN. Who, for the Secret Service?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, Charles Kunkel, and Howard--I can't remember his first name.
Mr. RANKIN. Secret Service man?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was this arrangement made?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, down in the room in the suite.
Mr. RANKIN. There at the Six Flags Inn?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the three of you were there together, were you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, there were also Arlington police officers and several other Secret Service men.
Mr. RANKIN. Who participated in the conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know who else was in the conversation. It was primarily between Kunkel and Howard and myself.
Mr. RANKIN. What was said in regard to this arrangement at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, they said that they would need these rooms to accommodate the family and they had no idea how long they would need it.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the price and who would make payment?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. They said that the Government would take care of the room rate on it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to submit this matter to any of your superiors or did you make the decision at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I made the decision.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you had any prior dealings with the Secret Service people before that?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did Marguerite Oswald stay there?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe she left on Friday.
Mr. RANKIN. What day?
Mr. MARTIN. Or maybe Thursday. Would be the 28th or 29th, I am not certain as to the exact date.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any incidents where Marguerite Oswald sought to leave prior to the Thursday or Friday that she left?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't recall anything like that.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever assisted the local police officers in any other way at your Six Flags Inn before that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. In a general way what was the nature of that assistance.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I can't recall any specific instances. I know

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we cooperate with the law enforcement officers in anything they have to ask us, and we cooperate with them, giving them information. I don't know of any particular incidents other than----
Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe briefly just where these rooms were in your Inn and where the Secret Service were compared with Marina Oswald's rooms?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina Oswald was in Rooms 423 and 424, which were connecting rooms, and the rooms faced away from the entrance to the motel. And then the Secret Service had 422 and 421 also. They were rooms next door to it, but not connecting.
Mr. RANKIN. After Marina first came there did the Secret Service have someone on duty while she was at the Six Flags?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. All the time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who that was?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see-- well, I remember his first name now, Mike Howard, and Charles Kunkel, Lee Gopadze was there part of the time. They seemed to change quite frequently.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they have someone there 24 hours of the day?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. During this early period did you ever talk to Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. No, except to say hello.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether she talked English much at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. From all appearances, she didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone visit you while she was there at the Six Flags during this early period that you recall?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marina and her family to come to your home for Thanksgiving?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how that happened?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it just happened, I don't know, I think I asked Robert if he would like to come out for dinner, Thanksgiving dinner. They weren't going to have a very happy Thanksgiving, and living in those rooms was pretty cramped.
Mr. RANKIN. When was this that you asked Robert?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe on Wednesday.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you include Robert and his wife as well as Marina and her family in the invitation?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert's wife wasn't there, but I included Robert. He came out to the house also.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina then come to your house for Thanksgiving?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Who all came at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, there were Marina and June Lee, and Robert, Charlie Kunkel, and one Arlington police officer. I don't recall his name.
Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did they come?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marguerite Oswald to Thanksgiving dinner at that time, too?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. No. As I recall I just asked, I believe I just asked Robert if they would like to come, they were welcome if they would like to come.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that you included Marguerite Oswald in your invitation?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think I named her. I don't know if she had left by then.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't deliberately exclude her from the invitation?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Then did you at some time discuss with Marina the possibility of her staying at your home rather than at the Six Flags Inn?

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Mr. MARTIN. No, I discussed it with Secret Service first.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Thursday or Friday.
Mr. RANKIN. Before this Thanksgiving dinner or afterwards?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I know the Secret Service made a statement that they were quite concerned as to where Marina would go after she left the Inn. They had no place to put her and they had no idea where she was going to go.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when they made that statement?
Mr. MARTIN. No, it was Wednesday or Thursday.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time did you say anything about that?
Mr. MARTIN. I told them that if they couldn't find any place for her that I would be glad to take them into my home.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about what compensation you would receive for that?
Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no compensation considered.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't suggest any and they didn't, is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that idea with Marina at all?
Mr. MARTIN. No. They, the Secret Service told Robert about it, and----
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?
Mr. MARTIN. Because he told me they had. And then Robert thanked me and said that it would work out all right.
Mr. RANKIN. Before you made that suggestion had you had any discussions about selling any rights to Marina's stories or anything of that character?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. With any media?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to make this offer?
Mr. MARTIN. I felt sorry for her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you limit the offer to Marina and her children?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk at that time about Robert living at your home, too?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Anything about Marguerite living there?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss this proposal with your wife before you made it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission briefly your home, how the layout of it was?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it. is a three-bedroom house, with a living room, dining room, den and kitchen, two baths.
Mr. RANKIN. All of it on the same floor?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us an idea of where the bedrooms were from the rest of the house?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, as you come in the front door you go through one end of the living room, and then into a hallway, and the bedrooms are along the hall.
Mr. RANKIN. And is yours and Mrs. Martin's bedroom at the end of the hall?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Does it have a private bath associated with that suite?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And all of the rooms of the house are on one floor, is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then where was Marina's bedroom from yours?
Mr. MARTIN. The next room.
Mr. RANKIN. And where was the bath that she used?

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Mr. MARTIN. Right across the hall from it.
Mr. RANKIN. And then after Marina's room right next to hers?
Mr. MARTIN. Is a children's bedroom.
Mr. RANKIN. That was the closest one to the living room, is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. About how large was your bedroom?
Mr. MARTIN. I think it is about 14 by, maybe 14 by 14, 16.
Mr. RANKIN. How large was Marina's room?
Mr. MARTIN. About 11 by 13.
Mr. RANKIN. And the children's room?
Mr. MARTIN. About the same size.
Mr. RANKIN. What children do you have?
Mr. MARTIN. I have a 14-year-old boy and a 12-year-old boy and a 6-year-old girl.
Mr. RANKIN. And they are all living at home.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And they have been throughout this period, have they?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed the assassination with Marina at all prior to the time she came to live with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed any financial arrangements with her or the idea that you should manage her affairs before she came to live with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. When did the donations for Marina and her children start to come in, do you recall the date?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it before she came to live with you?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, I didn't--I think it started after she came into the house.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, if you will excuse me now, gentlemen, I am going to retire to my Court work and Mr. Dulles, will you conduct the hearing? If you are still in session I will be here this afternoon to see you, if not, gentlemen, I am very glad to have seen you, both of you. Give Mr. Thorne my regards, please.
(At this point, the Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed, please.
Mr. RANKIN. When did the idea of your being Marina's business manager first come up.
Mr. MARTIN. It was after the first of December. She had been there about 3 or 4 days, I guess.
Mr. RANKIN. That is 1963?
Mr. MARTIN. 1963.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how it came up?
Mr. MARTIN. One of the Secret Service agents suggested that I get an attorney for Marina.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Lee Gopadze.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did this conversation occur?
Mr. MARTIN. In the den.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was there?
Mr. MARTIN. I think Marina was there.
Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day, do you recall?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze made this suggestion, he made it to you, did he?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say that in English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know whether Marina understood it?

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Mr. MARTIN. Well, he had discussed it with her.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, he was talking about it to her about something in Russian.
Mr. RANKIN. And then he turned to you, did he?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about who you should get as a lawyer for her?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told him I would be happy to get one for her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. John Thorne.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to select John Thorne?
Mr. MARTIN. I had known him from association at the Inn.
Mr. RANKIN. Had he ever acted as your attorney?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your acquaintance with him?
Mr. MARTIN. Just a passing acquaintance.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with Marina the qualifications of this attorney?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about it to Mr. Gopadze?
Mr. MARTIN. I, like I probably mentioned, John had handled some movie work and he would probably know something about the area in which we were talking.
Mr. RANKIN. After you had made the suggestion of Mr. Thorne as a lawyer did you do anything about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I called Mr. Thorne.
Mr. RANKIN. On the telephone?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened?
Mr. MARTIN. He came over, I believe, the next day and talked to Marina and Lee Gopadze and myself.
Mr. RANKIN. How did he talk to Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, through Lee Gopadze.
Mr. RANKIN. As an interpreter?
Mr. MARTIN. As an interpreter.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze is fluent in both Russian and English?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell what Mr. Gopadze said to Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the nature of this retainer with Mr. Thorne at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't understand the question.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be doing if he was employed as her lawyer.
Mr. MARTIN. Handling all her legal work.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And did you say anything about what the legal work would involve, the kind of work it would be?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so at the time. I may have mentioned something about her story or something like that. I don't recall the conversation.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the donations at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be paid by way of compensation?
Mr. MARTIN. Not at that time. It was later.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by you or Mr. Thorne about his qualifications to act as her attorney?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.
Mr. RANKIN. Were formal arrangements made about the employment of Mr. Thorne as counsel for Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

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Mr. RANKIN. When was that done?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe that was December 6.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else that was said or done at this conversation when Mr. Thorne came over and talked to Marina through the interpreter and you were present?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there a formal contract executed between Marina and Mr. Thorne at some time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that was December 6 to your recollection.
Mr. MARTIN. Either the 5th or the 6th.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, before that contract was executed did you discuss it with Mr. Thorne?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina present when you did?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did this discussion occur?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was at the Inn.
Mr. RANKIN. Your office?
Mr. MARTIN. No, in the coffee shoppe.
Mr. RANKIN. Who else was present.
Mr. MARTIN. No one.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you then go over the terms of the contract with him?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I left that up to him.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you then the manager of Marina's affairs?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Who were you acting for in regard to that arrangement?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, acting for Marina although I had no--I had no contract to that effect.
Mr. RANKIN. You were still acting under this suggestion by Mr. Gopadze that some counsel be gotten for her?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And you did go over the terms of this contract at that time, did you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any suggestions for changes?
Mr. MARTIN. That we delete it, on my contract, we deleted any gifts or contributions.
Mr. RANKIN. That is on the draft of the contract for you to act as manager?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And when did that idea of your acting as manager come up?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was the same day that John Thorne came out to talk to Marina and to Gopadze.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who brought it up?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest that you act as manager?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe I suggested it. We were discussing the need for a manager, and I don't know who brought it up as far as my being the one.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time was there any discussion about what compensation you would have?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. When you were talking to Mr. Thorne in the coffee shoppe was there a discussion about how much compensation he would receive for acting as attorney?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What was said about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, just that it would be 10 percent.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that before with him?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. DULLES. Senator, we welcome you.
Senator COOPER. Thank you.

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Mr. DULLES. Would you proceed? Would you just resume for a moment where we are in the proceedings?
Mr. RANKIN. We are discussing the contract between Mr. Martin and Marina and also how Mr. Thorne became counsel under the contracts that were made.
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. This 10-percent figure for John Thorne and the contract with regard to his appointment then was his suggestion so far as you know?
Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know. I think we had discussed it.
Mr. RANKIN. You had discussed it?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know exactly how we came to these figures as far as that is concerned.
Mr. RANKIN. But you think you had discussed it before the meeting at the coffee shoppe that you described?
Mr. MARTIN. Probably so.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest the amount?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't recall whether you did or he did?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk that over with Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe Lee Gopadze.
Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, there were several times we discussed it with Marina. One time Robert was there. He read the contracts. Let's see, he usually came in on Sunday so he read the contracts more at length.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert come in before or after your conversation in the coffee shoppe that you referred to?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe after.
Mr. RANKIN. After you had the conversation in the coffee shoppe with Mr. Thorne, did you make any changes in the draft of the contract.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. LEECH. Excuse me, what contract are you talking about?
Mr. RANKIN. Thorne contract. Were you referring to the Thorne contract?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What changes did you make at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. We deleted gifts, contributions. He used a standard contractual form, and in that contractual form it includes gifts and contributions, and we deleted those.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 279 and ask you if that is a photostat copy of the contract you have been referring to?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And it has stricken out the words that you have just described with regard to donations and gifts?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. It does give him an interest in collections, trust funds and bequests, according to the language of this Exhibit No. 279. Do you know what was meant by that?
Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the standard contract that this was drawn from.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever discuss this contract, Exhibit No. 279, with Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, with Mr. Thorne and Robert Oswald present.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Between the 1st and the 6th of December 1963. I can't recall he dates.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember where you were when you had that discussion?
Mr. MARTIN. At the house, my home.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Marina about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall any conversation at all.

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Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the 10 percent at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she knew it was 10 percent.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know she knew that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, we explained it to her.
Mr. RANKIN. Who explained it?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know whether I did or whether John Thorne did or Robert.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she understand English enough to understand what you were talking about?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?
Mr. MARTIN. Because of her reaction to it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she react about the 10 percent?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I mean there was no reaction as far as her, a definite reaction but I could tell she understood it.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about her that caused you to think that she understood it?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know. I think it was explained to her as 10 cents of a dollar.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything----
Mr. MARTIN. But she said she understood percents.
Mr. RANKIN. How did she say that?
Mr. MARTIN. That way. "I understand percents" or something of that type.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion with Marina about the effect of this contract on donations and contributions from the public?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We said that that would not be included in that 10 per-cent.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to Marina about whether this was a good contract for her?
Mr. MARTIN. I probably did.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You have no recollection about that?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Actually we left most of it up to Robert.
Mr. RANKIN. So whatever explanation was made to Marina was really made by Robert, is that right?
Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record.
Mr. LEECH. Mr. Martin's contract and Robert had a contract with her, too, and Mr. Thorne's contract were left with her. They were not signed that day.
Mr. RANKIN. You tell us what you know about that, Mr. Martin.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert wanted to read over the contracts and think them over, and I believe he took copies of them. Now, I am not sure, I am not certain about that.
Mr. RANKIN. When did Robert get involved here, of getting a share?
Mr. MARTIN. From the beginning.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you present when that matter came up?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That was Marina's request that he participate.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that request made?
Mr. MARTIN. Prior to the signing of the contracts, probably December 4-- 3d or 4th.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe John Thorne and Robert, Marina and myself.
Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. She wanted Robert to have some of the money.
Mr. RANKIN. What did Robert say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. As I recall he didn't say much of anything.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to indicate that he thought that was a good idea, a bad idea?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think he said, "Thank you," that is about it.

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Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about how much she wanted Robert to get?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Ten percent.
Mr. RANKIN. She just said 10 percent, is that all?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina make any explanation of how she decided that Robert should get a share, too?
Mr. MARTIN. No, other than she wanted to give Robert something.
Representative FORD. May I ask a question?
Mr. RANKIN. Surely.
Representative FORD. Was there any discussion at any time, Mr. Martin, as to whether Marguerite should have any benefits from it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina discuss with you at that time what Robert was to do for his 10 percent?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any discussion about what you were to do for your share?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, to sell her story.
Mr. RANKIN. And what would Mr. Thorne do for his 10 percent?
Mr. MARTIN. Handle all the legal work involved.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear any discussion about what Robert was to do for his percentage?
Mr. MARTIN. We said that--let's see--we would discuss with him on various occasions any of these contracts, but that he was--he would take over the handling of Marina's affairs in case of my disability.
Mr. LEECH. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything more said than you have related about what Robert would do for his share?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I probably remarked to him that there would probably be plenty for him to do.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any dispute between any of you or with Marina at this time about the percentages?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing that I recall was the terms of the contract, of my contract.
Mr. RANKIN. Was something said about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Was 10 years.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. And Marina thought that was too long.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. She said she thought 10 years was too long.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she wanted a 1 year contract and I told her that actually 1 year, there is no telling how this story would develop or anything, and that 1 year might interfere with the sale of the story.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say to that?
Mr. MARTIN. That they agreed to it.
Mr. RANKIN. She agreed then to the 10 years?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was any interpreter present at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. So whatever Marina understood about was from her understanding of English and communication with you and Robert and Mr. Thorne?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, Lee Gopadze had discussed it prior to that.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that in your presence?
Mr. MARTIN. No. He just discussed it, the general terms, I assume.
Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know.
Mr. MARTIN. Of course. I couldn't understand what he was saying. We left the contracts with her for several days.

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Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know what was done with them?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Because you weren't present. Do you know whether she understood English enough to read those contracts at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She couldn't have read the contracts at that time. But she said she understood it sufficiently, and that she would trust Robert's judgment on it.
Mr. RANKIN. When did she say that?
Mr. MARTIN. Just before I guess the same day she signed it.
Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you to look at Exhibit No. 279 and tell us whether you recognize the signatures on that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Whose signatures are they?
Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and James H. Martin.
Mr. RANKIN. In the parts that are stricken out----
Mr. MARTIN. John M. Thorne.
Mr. RANKIN. On Exhibit No. 279 were those stricken out before the discussion of the contract?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that done when you were there?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe the signing?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. LEECH. They were not signed the date it says they were signed.
Mr. MARTIN. On the 5th.
Mr. LEECH. The date it says they were signed that is the date they were drawn up but they were all signed the same time, weren't they, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what the facts are in that regard, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. The contracts were drawn--let's see-the contracts were drawn and Robert wanted to go over them, so we held it in abeyance. I think he was there on a Sunday and he came back on a Tuesday, I am not sure about the days, and signed the contracts.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the signature of Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us whether or not Exhibit No. 279 bears her signature?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it does.
Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be witnessed by you, is that your signature?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the acceptance at the bottom of Exhibit No. 279, do you know whose signature that is?
Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne's.
Mr. RANKIN. And you say that the exhibit was, the contract, Exhibit No. 279 was executed on the 6th rather than the 5th day of December.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I can't recall the dates on it.
Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LEECH. Counsel, for what it is worth, Robert's was executed at the same time as the other ones. I believe his is dated the 9th, isn't it? So it would have been the 9th or afterwards. They were all executed at the same time.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, do you know that?
Mr. MARTIN. I know they were all executed the same time.
Mr. RANKIN. Whether or not it was the 9th or the 6th you don't recall at this time?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I am fairly certain it was not the 6th.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you certain what date it was?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What is your best recollection in that regard?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was several days after the contracts were drawn that

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they were executed, and I believe the contracts were drawn, and the date that they were drawn was entered on the contract.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that might have been December 5 that they were drawn then?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is already in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. It has already been admitted.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, we would like to have a short adjournment at 10:30. The members of the Commission would like to speak with you.
(Short recess.)
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will resume. Mr. Rankin, will you please continue with the examination?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, I have been asking you about some of your contractual and financial arrangements with Marina Oswald and also Mr. Thorne's and Robert Oswald's. If you and your counsel won't object I would like to depart from that because I would like to have this information developed when some of the members of the Commission are here who might not be at other times during your examination.
Mr. MARTIN. One thing Mr. Leech brought to my attention was that he thought maybe you might be under the impression that these contracts were all drawn on the same date, December 5. They weren't drawn on the same date. I think it was the 5th, 6th and 7th, or the 5th, 6th, and 9th. Robert's was drawn on the 9th, mine was drawn the 6th, and Mr. Thorne's was drawn the 5th.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. I want to ask you about a particular incident that was referred to in the Houston Post, an article in the paper and the source was given as you and that is in regard to Mr. Nixon, Richard Nixon, former Vice President of the United States. Did Marina ever say anything to you about Lee Oswald planning any violent action or assassination of Richard M. Nixon?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn about that?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember the date. It was sometime in January, and she mentioned it, said that he had come home one night and said, one evening, and said that he had waited for Nixon to shoot him.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was this?
Mr. MARTIN. In Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. What time was it that he came home that night?
Mr. MARTIN. I didn't question her too much about the time. I assumed that it was after work.
Mr. RANKIN. At about what time of the day was it?
Mr. MARTIN. Five or six o'clock. She said they were living on Neely Street, and he came home that night, and told her about it. So the next morning he got up, Nixon had not come into town, so he said that he would be in the next day, and so he got up the next morning and got dressed with a suit, I believe she said, and she locked him in the bathroom and kept him there all day, they said.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say how she locked him in the bathroom?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her how she could do that, whether there was a lock on the inside of the bathroom or outside?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I thought it was a little--I thought the story was a little far-fetched myself.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I said, "Don't go around telling people something like that."
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about whether it was true or not?
Mr. MARTIN. She said it was true.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question?

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Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES, Was this brought up in connection with anything in particular or just come out of the blue, blurted out?
Mr. MARTIN. It just came out of the blue.
Mr. DULLES. There was no prior conversation that led up to this or any background to it?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. It was just a statement that she made. I think she was talking about Oswald----
Representative FORD. Was she prone to come out with these kinds of comments or was this an unusual circumstance?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She at times referred to some particular incident in Russia or various things like that. And they would be completely unattached to anything that we had been talking about.
Mr. RANKIN. What more did you say to her about this incident when she brought it up?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, the only time I recall Nixon being in Dallas was in November. Now, she was not living with Oswald in November, and----
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to her?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I just let the thing go.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even ask her how she locked him in the bathroom?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I thought about it, because I know the only bathroom doors I have seen lock from the inside and they swing in.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her what he did after he was locked in the bathroom?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. She said he didn't do anything. When she let him out that night, and I suppose he would be pretty mad at her, and she said no, he wasn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say she kept him in the bathroom all day?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Was anybody else present at the time of this statement by her to you?
Mr. MARTIN. My wife.
Representative FORD. Did your wife make any inquiry?
Mr. MARTIN. No. We thought it was some kind of a story.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean you thought it was an untrue story?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and why, I don't know. It didn't sound logical.
Mr. RANKIN. Were there other conversations with Marina that you had where you thought she was telling you things that were untrue?
Mr. MARTIN. She would relate stories about Russia that I would listen to but they didn't sound right.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, they mostly dealt with boy friends.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say in that regard?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she would talk about some individual boy friends, usually a non-Russian, someone from Rumania or Germany or from some other country.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say?
Mr. LEECH. Is this going to be made public?
Mr. RANKIN. This might be, yes.
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, I don't know about specific incidents. She would remark about she knew--I am trying to think of a specific--one was, let's see, she left Leningrad and went to Minsk because of an association with a married man there.
Representative FORD. In Leningrad?
Mr. MARTIN. It was either she left Leningrad to go to Minsk or vice versa.
Representative FORD. But she left one or the other to go to the other because of an association with a married man?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was the association, in Leningrad or in Minsk?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the city that she left.

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Mr. RANKIN. She was getting away from that association, was she?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. By going to the other city?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other conversation when she told you something that you don't believe?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she remarked about people that she knew in Russia that had, we will say, lovers----
Mr. DULLES. Did she tell anything about a letter that she wrote to a boy friend in Minsk?
Mr. MARTIN. After she was here in New Orleans?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. What did she say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she said she wrote the letter, and I believe what it was she told the boy that she wasn't--she wanted to come back to Russia, to him, she loved him, and the letter was returned, I believe, for lack of postage, and Oswald got hold of the letter, and he asked her about it, and I think he asked her either to read it or he would read it. I believe she read it to him. This caused quite a bit of difficulty. Now, that is when she was in New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. When she was telling you about these people that had lovers in Russia, you didn't believe these stories? Is that what you are saying?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I know nothing about Russian life.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. So I more or less took it with a grain of salt. I didn't put any credibility to it or any doubt to it. It was just something that was said and I didn't either accept it or reject it.
Mr. RANKIN. How did she happen to tell you about going to Minsk to get away from a married man in Leningrad? Tell us how that came up.
Mr. MARTIN. I think she was just talking about boy friends, I guess.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you she had quite a few boy friends?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that in Russia that she had the boy friends?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How many did she tell you about?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy. Well, she didn't mention any names as such, and I don't know whether different stories got confused to being two different people or-I would say 10 or 12.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she include Lee Oswald among those?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, you mean as a boy friend?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you anything about her relations with these boy friends?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You say you didn't believe these stories?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I didn't have any reason to disbelieve or to believe them. They were just conversation.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, on the Nixon matter, when that came to your attention, did you tell anyone else about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I discussed it with my wife, and with John Thorne.
Mr. DULLES. Excuse me just a moment.
Mr. Martin, this is Congressman Boggs, a member of the Commission, and this is Mr. Leech, counsel for Mr. Martin.
Mr. LEECH. I know Mr. Boggs, I met him in New Orleans years ago.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about the conversation when you related this to someone else?
Mr. MARTIN. It was on the telephone, and I was quite shocked at first about it and then thinking it over, it didn't sound logical.
Mr. RANKIN. You believed it at first?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I guess I didn't see any reason for it not to be true. But

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then I didn't see any reason for it to be a lie, either, and I supposed it was possible.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell Mr. Thorne about it with reference to when Marina told you?
Mr. MARTIN. The same day. I don't recall the date at all.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Mr. Thorne about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I just related the incident, what she had told me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about telling the Commission about it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about telling the Commission about it?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else said in this telephone conversation with Mr. Thorne except relating what Marina had said?
Mr. MARTIN. I remarked what a big bombshell that would be as far as publicity was concerned if the newspapers ever got hold of something like that.
Mr. RANKIN. That it would be helpful in regard to Marina's story, did you say that?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I did think it would be harmful.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to him?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe so.
Mr. DULLES. Why would it be harmful?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, this purportedly took place after the Walker incident, and she had made a statement that if Oswald repeated anything of a similar nature as the Walker incident she would turn him over to the police, and this was a repeat or similar, he actually didn't shoot at him but threatened to, and she did not report it to the police.
Mr. DULLES. I see. The Walker incident took place on April 10, 1963, according to our records.
Senator COOPER. I would like you if you can to repeat everything that Mrs. Oswald told you about the Nixon incident. What did Lee say to her?
Mr. MARTIN. This has been a very confusing 2 months----
Senator COOPER. I know that.
Mr. MARTIN. To me.
Senator COOPER. Do the best you can. Take your time and tell us about it.
Mr. MARTIN. I couldn't recall it verbatim, but she said he came in one evening, early in the evening, and said that he had tried to shoot Nixon but that he had not come into town that night as he was supposed to have, or that day, but that he would be in the next day, and he would take care of it then.
(Discussion off the record.)
Senator COOPER. I think you said that she did at least partly identify the time by saying at the time they were living on Neely Street.
Mr. MARTIN. Neely Street.
Mr. DULLES. May I just add there our records indicate they were living on Neely Street on March 2, between March 2, 1963, and April 24, 1963.
Senator COOPER. Did Mrs. Oswald tell you anything that he said about the way or means he intended to kill him or at what place?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what weapon she mentioned at the time?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I recall that she said shoot him or kill him.
Representative FORD. Could she speak English well enough to differentiate between shoot and kill?
Mr. MARTIN. At the time?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. She could distinguish English that well?
Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention a pistol or rifle?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention whether he was employed at the time or unemployed at the time?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so.

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Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her how it was possible for her to keep him in a bathroom for one whole day?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did you ask her why Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to kill Nixon, any motive?
Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked, "Well, why would he want to do that?" And she shrugged her shoulders.
Senator COOPER. I would like to follow up on that. In this conversation with her, did he give any reason to Marina Oswald why he wanted to kill Nixon?
Mr. MARTIN. Evidently not. She didn't answer. She didn't answer me when I asked.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have said in your opinion the Nixon incident was after the Walker incident.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, that is what she said.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate it to the General Walker incident in any way when she discussed the Nixon incident with you?
Mr. MARTIN. She just said it was after General Walker.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate to you any conversation that she may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald relating the Nixon incident to the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she refer to any promise that he may have made at the time of the Walker incident that may have related to the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I remember her saying after the Walker incident she told him that if he ever did anything of that nature again that she would report him to the police.
Mr. DULLES. How did you know the Nixon incident was after or supposed to be after the Walker incident? Did she say that?
Mr. MARTIN. She said it was.
Mr. DULLES. She said that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes; I asked when it happened and she said after Walker.
Mr. REDLICH. When she told you that she had threatened Lee Oswald with going to the police if there were another incident, did you ever ask her why she had not done so in light of the Nixon incident which subsequently followed?
Mr. MARTIN. I must not have because I think I would have remembered it if I had.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever consider reporting the Nixon incident to any Federal authorities?
Mr. MARTIN. If it didn't come out in the hearing, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald was preparing to come to Washington with you for the hearings before this Commission, did you discuss the Nixon incident with her?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I know I told her to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission. She had mentioned that she had lied to the FBI.
Mr. REDLICH. With regard to what?
Mr. MARTIN. On a Mexico trip. She told the FBI she didn't know he had gone there or that he was going.
Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge had she ever related the Nixon incident to the FBI or Secret Service prior to her trip to Washington?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I was never in on any of the questions.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her any advice in connection with any of those interviews?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I told her if she got tired to tell them so that they could come back the next day.
Mr. REDLICH. You say when she was planning to come here you advised her to tell the truth?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her similar advice in connection with the FBI and Secret Service interviews?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think the situation ever arose. She asked specifically about the Mexico incident.
Mr. REDLICH. Throughout the many interviews with the FBI and Secret

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Service you never asked her, I take it, whether she had discussed the Nixon incident with the FBI or the Secret Service?
Mr. MARTIN. I think I may have asked her when she told me, if she had told the FBI.
Mr. REDLICH. What did she say?
Mr. MARTIN. She said no.
Mr. REDLICH. What did you say?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall if I said anything.
Representative FORD. Mr. Redlich, I wonder if we couldn't have Mr. Martin tell us the time of day and the circumstances that this conversation with Marina in the presence of your wife arose, not necessarily the date but the time of day, and the overall----
Mr. MARTIN. It was in the evening.
Representative FORD. You were sitting around the room?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in the den.
Representative FORD. Just the three of you.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did she just start talking or did you prompt her or just how did the situation arise?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I think maybe--I think it just came into conversation as we were talking about the whole thing in general.
Mr. DULLES. Were you talking at that time about what her memoirs or any writings she might----
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES.--she might produce would include?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. What was your wife's reaction to this story?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she couldn't believe it either.
Representative FORD. Did she ask any questions about it such as the ones you have indicated?
Mr. MARTIN. No, other than the ones I asked.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us with whom you have discussed the Nixon incident other than those that you have mentioned thus far, I believe thus far you have said Mrs. Martin and Mr. Thorne. Is there anyone else you have told this to?
Mr. MARTIN. Don Levine.
Mr. REDLICH. Who?
Mr. MARTIN. Levine.
Mr. REDLICH. Who is he?
Mr. MARTIN. A writer.
Mr. REDLICH. For what publication.
Mr. MARTIN. He is an author.
Mr. DULLES. Freelance writer and author, Isaac Don Levine for the record.
Mr. REDLICH. When did you relate this incident to him?
Mr. MARTIN. Back in January.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us why you told him?
Mr. MARTIN. He is of the opinion that there is more to this than meets the eye, so to speak. He is----
Mr. DULLES. More to what?
Mr. MARTIN. More to the assassination.
Mr. DULLES. The Nixon story?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. The whole assassination, Kennedy assassination?
Mr. MARTIN. And he of course, he is quite familiar with Russian affairs, and he said the stories just don't match, and he was trying to tie in Oswald, I guess, with the Communist Party or some attachment there some place, and I mentioned that I thought he was just a nut.
Mr. REDLICH. That who was.
Mr. MARTIN. Oswald. And I said, I told him I didn't know how true it was but then I related the story, and he--I cautioned him not to pass it around or anything like that, which he said he wouldn't.

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Mr. REDLICH. Were you or Marina Oswald compensated in any way for the release of this information to Mr. Levine?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Levine at this time trying to get the rights to the story or the right to write the story?
Mr. MARTIN. He wants to write the story, and through Meredith Press.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you negotiating with Mr. Levine at the time concerning the rights to Marina Oswald's story?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And it was during the course of these negotiations that you revealed to him the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And this, you say, was sometime in January?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell anyone else other than Mr. Levine?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall unless it was Robert Oswald.
Mr. REDLICH. Will you try to refresh your recollection with regard to Robert?
Mr. MARTIN. I beg your pardon?
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you had a conversation in mid-January with Robert Oswald concerning the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I was trying to remember that the other day to find out if I had mentioned it to him. And-- --
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall when Robert Oswald would come to visit your house?
Mr. MARTIN. On Sundays.
Mr. REDLICH. And what would he do on these Sundays?
Mr. MARTIN. Usually take Marina and the baby to the cemetery.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether on one of those Sundays you had a conversation with him concerning the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I am not sure whether I did tell him or not. It seems to me that I did, but I can't recall the incident at all.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, ever indicate to you that she had discussed the Nixon incident with anyone else?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. To be more specific, did she ever indicate to you whether she had discussed the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. With Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. With any Federal authority?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you state again what your advice to her was with regard to the revealing of this incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told her it would be advisable just not to say anything about it.
Mr. REDLICH. To anyone?
Mr. MARTIN. That is right.
Mr. REDLICH. But you related the incident to Mr. Levine.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. When you accompanied Mrs. Oswald to Washington for the hearings before this Commission, did the Nixon incident come up at all during your conversations?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.
Mr. REDLICH. This incident which you regarded of such importance at the time you didn't discuss with her at all during the time she was appearing before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember mentioning it to her.
Mr. REDLICH. You didn't ask her whether she had told the Commissioners?
Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it.
Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say?
Mr. MARTIN. He said no, not yet. And I dropped it at that.

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Mr. REDLICH. You and Mr. Thorne didn't have any conversations concerning whether she should mention it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of the testimony did you ask Mrs. Oswald whether she had mentioned it?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Mr. Thorne the question of whether she had mentioned the Nixon incident before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. I think so.
Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say?
Mr. MARTIN. He said no.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Mr. Thorne discuss whether she should have mentioned that incident before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you think it was an important incident, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I don't know why--the credibility of it didn't sound logical. It didn't seem to me that it actually happened.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you speak to any representative of the Houston Post or the Associated Press with regard to this incident in the last several days?
Mr. MARTIN. Yesterday morning.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of that conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. He came out and asked me.
Mr. REDLICH. Who is "he"?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, his name is Creighton, I believe or the last name began with a "C", he is with the Houston Post, reporter. He came out and asked me what I knew about the Nixon incident and I said I know nothing about it. He said well he had it on good authority that there was a diary that Lee Harvey Oswald had written and it was mentioned in the diary. Now, I have never heard of a diary involved. There are some 60 pages of manuscript that he is supposed to have written, but I have never heard of a diary. Then--which I told him. He asked me if I knew of anyone that he could contact to find more about it. And I said well, if anybody knows about it, it will be the Commission, and I told him that I had just heard about it the day before, and he asked if Marina knew anything about it, and I said I don't know.
Mr. REDLICH. You didn't discuss with this reporter whether you believed the incident to be true?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. At the time you first learned about the incident you thought it was of sufficient importance that you called Mr. Thorne the same day, isn't that right?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We discussed it back and forth and I don't--we couldn't think of how it could happen.
Mr. LEECH. Could we go off the record?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Read this brief report into the record.
Mr. REDLICH. 1 would like to read into the record a story which appears in the Washington Post February 22, 1964--27, 1964, dated Houston, Texas, February 26, Associated Press: "The Houston Post quoted an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald's widow tonight as saying Oswald planned to kill former Vice President Richard M. Nixon. The Post quoted James Martin, until a few days ago Marina Oswald's business representative, as saying that evidence to this effect had been presented to the Warren Commission investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Martin is scheduled to testify before the Commissioners Thursday. Nixon was in Dallas the day before President Kennedy was killed. Oswald was charged with the slaying."
Mr. MARTIN. Now, I did not tell him--I told him exactly what I told you, that I had no knowledge of it. I had secondhand knowledge only of it. I said if anyone knew about it the Commission would know it.

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Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell him that this evidence had been presented before the Warren Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I told him if anybody knew about it, you would know about it.
Senator COOPER. I think you said a minute ago that you only learned about it the day before?
Mr. MARTIN. That is what I told the newspaper reporter.
Senator COOPER. What is the significance of that? Did you talk to somebody the day before?
Mr. MARTIN. No, it was just a method of brushing him off.
Senator COOPER. Had you talked to Robert Oswald the day before?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Senator COOPER. May I ask this: Now, Mrs. Marina Oswald told you about the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Had she previously told you about the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. General Walker?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, after it came out in the newspapers. The first I heard about it was when I read in the newspapers.
Senator COOPER. Then she talked to you about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I asked her about it.
Senator COOPER. You have read somewhere, have you, that Mrs. Marina Oswald said that Lee Oswald gave her his reason for wanting to shoot at General Walker?
Mr. MARTIN. The reason she gave me was that Lee Harvey Oswald thought that General Walker was a Fascist.
Senator COOPER. Right.
Mr. MARTIN. And needed to be killed.
Senator COOPER. Did she tell you any statement that Lee Oswald made giving his reasons that he wanted to kill or shoot Richard Nixon?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Senator COOPER. Didn't talk about that at all?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you of any other statements that Lee Oswald had made to her about his, any attempts that he made or any intentions that he had to kill any other person?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Senator COOPER. You are sure of that?
Mr. MARTIN. Positive.
Senator COOPER. Did she tell you about any statements that Lee Oswald might have made about President Kennedy?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Anything that----
Senator COOPER. You must have talked to her a great deal about this assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. MARTIN. Actually, I tried to avoid most of this stuff.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mr. MARTIN. I tried to avoid most of these things. I don't know, I figured they would be a sore spot with her, but I don't know whether they were or not.
Senator COOPER. It would be tremendously helpful to this Commission to know if she did talk to you about the assassination of President Kennedy and anything that Lee Oswald might have said about him before and tell us anything----
Mr. MARTIN. If she had said anything to me about it I would definitely tell you. I cannot recall any incident that--of the conversation between she and Lee about any other assassination or about the President.
Mr. DULLES. Had you ever met or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald lived in your home for how long?
Mr. MARTIN. About 2-1/2 months.
Representative BOGGS. You had many conversations with her in that period of time.
Mr. MARTIN. No, not really many. I was usually out of the house, and there weren't many opportunities that arose to have a conversation.

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Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any reason to believe that she was anything other than what she appeared to be, namely an ordinary housewife who had come to this country as the wife of an American whom she married?
Mr. MARTIN. Looking back on the whole picture, she doesn't seem quite right. I mean she doesn't fit.
Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that?
Mr. MARTIN. As a mother and a housewife. She is too cold for one thing.
Representative BOGGS. Cold in what way?
Mr. MARTIN. Emotionally. This thing, I don't know whether it is the Russian woman or what, but this thing would have terrifically upset an American woman, and she was not very upset at all.
Representative FORD. Not upset about the assassination?
Mr. MARTIN. About her husband.
Representative FORD. About her husband's subsequent death?
Representative BOGGS. Well now----
Mr. MARTIN. She was to a degree. But it didn't ring true.
Representative BOGGS. So what do you mean by that. Do you mean that because of her coolness under very terrific--very difficult conditions and a very difficult situation, that maybe she was not just what she appeared to be, and if not, what do you think she was?
Mr. MARTIN. I have no idea. It is the way she treated, the way she treated contributions for instance; someone would send a dollar, I don't know, maybe it was her last dollar, and she would look at it and throw it aside and say, "Oh, it is just a dollar." And John Thorne and I kind of built up an image for her or of her, for the American public, and she is not exactly as we picture her in the news articles.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you spell that out in more detail?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, for one thing, I recall instances that she read the Bible every day, she didn't crack a Bible. She got up between 10 and 11 o'clock every morning. The only household chores she did was wash the evening dinner dishes, and occasionally she would vacuum.
Representative BOGGS. This may be attributed to lack of energy or laziness.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes, that is true. But she is not a humble person at all.
Representative FORD. Did you ever see her cry or show any comparable emotions?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The closest I ever saw her to really showing any emotion at all was when, it was about a week after she had been there, she saw a picture, of Jackie Kennedy's picture--a picture of Jackie Kennedy, I don't know whether it was Life Magazine or what.
Representative BOGGS. Did she ever do anything or say anything that would give you any reason to believe that maybe she was part of an intelligence system?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Although I have wondered about it since.
Mr. REDLICH. Since when, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, this whole thing, since I got into it. This whole thing seems to me like I have been kind of made a patsy. Robert Oswald wouldn't take her in right after this incident because he was afraid of what might happen, might or might not happen. The Fords also expressed the same opinion.
Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by the same opinion?
Mr. MARTIN. That they wouldn't have taken her in at first. Mr. Ford expressed the opinion that he was afraid of what the public reaction might be and he didn't know what to think. We took her in with the full knowledge that anything could happen, and anything might happen, and it was done strictly on an altruistic basis at first, and then this manager thing came in which I wish it hadn't at all. But be that as it may, it has happened, and things have been turned upside. But then as soon as the Secret Service was pulled off then Robert insisted that she move from my home to his home, and start proceedings to cancel the contracts that are in existence. She was up there--she came back to the doctor on a Tuesday after she left our home, and stopped in at the house and said she wanted to come back to live with us.

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Mr. DULLES. When was this approximately? Just after she moved to the Fords or how long after she moved?
Mr. MARTIN. No, she left my home on Sunday, went to Denton to live with Robert, came back to the doctor, Dr. Bishop, on Tuesday, and came over to the house to pick up some of her belongings, and----
Mr. REDLICH. Excuse me, just so the Commission has the date straight, the Sunday you are referring to when she left is the Sunday after her appearance before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. That would be the 9th of February, is that correct?
Mr. MARTIN. Right. Then on Tuesday, which would be the 11th, she came back to the house, and wanted to move back in.
Representative FORD. Who drove her, how did she get there?
Mr. MARTIN. Vada Oswald, Robert Oswald's wife.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you finished with what you were about to say?
Mr. MARTIN. It just seemed strange to me that a sudden move should be made like that and then within two days after that, it was Tuesday, and Wednesday. Thursday and I received a letter from her discharging me as her manager or attempting to discharge me.
Representative BOGGS. I was asking you about intelligence and that sort of thing. This would not indicate that sort of thing to you, would it?
Mr. MARTIN. No, but the whole thing seemed to be a kind of a preplanned thing.
Mr. REDLICH. Will you spell that out in more detail because when Congressman Boggs asked you questions as to whether Mrs. Oswald might be part of Soviet intelligence you replied you are now beginning to wonder, and you also replied you wonder if you have been made a patsy. Could you, in your own words, explain that answer in greater detail?
Mr. MARTIN. Of course, not knowing how a spy would work or anything, I have no knowledge of anything of this sort, this whole thing shows a lack of gratefulness or something, and actually she showed the same thing with Mrs. Paine. She lived with Mrs. Paine for quite some time. Then Mrs. Paine has been trying to contact her consistently for, well, ever since the assassination, and we have passed letters to her, letters from Mrs. Paine to Marina, wherein she has asked Marina to at least call her or do something, and Marina doesn't want to have anything to do with her.
Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina given you a reason for that?
Mr. MARTIN. She said she doesn't like her.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know why it was that Robert Oswald advised her not to go back to the Paines or did you know that he did?
Mr. MARTIN. I knew that he did.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know the reason for that?
Mr. MARTIN. No. He said he just didn't like her.
Mr. DULLES. He gave no reasons?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. And Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, gave no reason to you as to why she didn't like the Paines?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I think it is because Robert didn't. That is a thought.
Mr. REDLICH. You said that----
Mr. MARTIN. She has expressed that.
Mr. REDLICH. You said that you were beginning to wonder whether this is a preplanned affair. What do you mean by that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't mean preplanned from the very beginning, but I think probably sometime in December from then on it might have been planned. We have accumulated for her a considerable amount of money in story rights.
Representative BOGGS. How much?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, on advances, this is not the ultimate or the end result, but just on advances, it is $132,000.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you are reading from a document. Is that something----

492

Mr. MARTIN. This I brought for you. We don't have the money. But these are the contracts that have been negotiated.
Mr. REDLICH. Is this something you are turning over to the Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is for your information.
Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of this document?
Mr. MARTIN. It is a handwritten----
Mr. DULLES. By whom?
Mr. MARTIN. By me, a handwritten list of the publishers, and the news media that I have contacted in Marina's behalf to sell her movie rights, the TV right, book rights and so forth.
Mr. DULLES. And the amount they have proposed to pay for them?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, these are just the advances. Now, in the case of Texitalia Films, for instance----
Mr. REDLICH. Could I interrupt and get this identified?
Mr. MARTIN. Certainly.
Mr. REDLICH. With your permission, we would like to introduce this into evidence and take a photostatic copy and leave you with the original.
Mr. MARTIN. Certainly.
Mr. DULLES. Would you describe this?
Mr. REDLICH. This document lists various publications, media of communication, and indicating the amounts which have been the subject of negotiation, and the contracts, if any, which have been signed with these various media of publication concerning Marina Oswald's story.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Martin has said this is written in his own hand, is that correct, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I have to go to a meeting at the Speaker's office momentarily, I would just like to ask one further question of this witness. Now, I understand about the business negotiations here and so forth, but I want you to be specific-anything that comes to your mind as to whether or not this woman, anything more than what I asked you about.
Mr. LEECH. Can you give us about two minutes in that room?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. REDLICH. Back on the record.
Mr. DULLES. Just one minute. This should go in the record.
Representative BOGGS. Who is this individual?
Mr. MARTIN. I have been trying to remember his name. I can find out his name. It began with an "H".
Mr. DULLES. Would you repeat the story, please, and then we will continue with the examination.
Mr. MARTIN. I met a gentleman who is an executive with the Dinkler Hotel chain, and he related the story to me that was told to him by one of their engineers, a maintenance man in the Atlanta, in their Atlanta hotel. The maintenance man's wife was an, or is a long distance telephone operator, and on the night preceding the assassination there was an individual that called, well, the way I heard the story, that she said he sounded like he had been drinking, and that he mentioned to her to remember this telephone call because it would go down in history. He made a credit card call to Lee Harvey Oswald, and simply said, "Proceed as planned." Then he made another telephone call to Jack Ruby and told him that if anything went wrong he knew what to do. Now, I questioned this, I guess there are numerous rumors of this type or whatever it is, and he said no, that it was definitely the truth, and the reason she hadn't come out before with it was that it is a violation of Federal law to listen to a long distance telephone call, and that they finally did report it to the FBI.
Mr. REDLICH. The person you were speaking to, as I understand this story, received the information from a maintenance man whose wife was the telephone operator who overheard the conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. Was this a telephone operator in a Dinkler hotel?

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Mr. MARTIN. I didn't get that whether it was in a Dinkler hotel or whether she was in the long distance or toll offices in Atlanta.
Representative BOGGS. Did this person have the credit card number and so forth?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The person that I was talking to?
Representative BOGGS. Did the telephone operator have it?
Mr. MARTIN. The telephone operator did, or the telephone company has the records.
Representative BOGGS. Do you have any other information that would indicate that----
Mr. MARTIN. No, I know this doesn't indicate anything about Marina as far as--no, it is just a strange feeling as far as Marina is concerned. She is too cold.
Mr. REDLICH. When did you hear about this story, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. About a week ago.
Mr. REDLICH. You haven't discussed it at all with Marina in that week?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to question you again on Congressman Boggs point. You have said she is too cold, you have said you thought that all this was pre-planned. Is there anything specific in anything that she told you or in any of her actions which would lead you to believe that she has withheld certain information from you, or this Commission, concerning her knowledge about the assassination?
Mr. MARTIN. No, except she made a remark to me one time that she didn't volunteer anything. She only answered questions.
Representative FORD. This was after the return from the Commission hearing?
Mr. MARTIN. No, this was sometime ago. That was before----
Representative FORD. Before the Commission hearing where she appeared?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And it was----
Mr. DULLES. Is that all you had on this particular point?
Representative BOGGS. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember what brought it up even. She didn't like the FBI. She said that. And she didn't like to answer questions.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you why?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She just didn't like them. Boguslav in particular.
Mr. REDLICH. But her remark was made before her hearing before this Commission.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. And did not relate then to that hearing.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you she had revealed everything that there was to reveal before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. here again I didn't question her about anything that she said in the Commission. I didn't feel it was any of my business for one thing, and all I asked her is how it went, and she would say fine, and that would be the end of it. That is the limit of my questioning her as far as testimony within the Commission was concerned.
Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell us how you found out about the General Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Read it from the newspapers.
Mr. REDLICH. When you read about it did you talk to Mrs. Oswald about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of the conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I asked her if it was true, and she said yes. and I also asked her who was with Oswald, and she said no one. He did things alone. And, let's see, she related the story as to the note he had written. He had left earlier in the evening, and he hadn't come home at the, we'll say, at an early hour, and she was getting quite upset with him, and she found this note on a bed table or somewhere in the bedroom, and read it, and it simply said that he might be gone for a time or he might be in jail, and instructions as to what to do in case he was gone.

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Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina tell you all about this?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. In English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. She knew English well enough to be able to relate this type of story?
Mr. MARTIN. She learned very rapidly.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall approximately when that was?
Mr. MARTIN. No. It was the same day it came out in the paper.
Representative FORD. Did she know of her own knowledge about General Walker? Did she indicate any background information about General Walker?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. She only told what Lee told her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Lee told her he was a Fascist.
Mr. DULLES. Did she recount to you, that is, did Marina account to you, what she said to Lee Harvey after this incident, after the Walker incident, after he told her about the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said that she hid the note that he left in a cookbook and told him if he ever did anything like that again that she would turn that note over to the police and turn him over to the police also.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, were you aware that Marina Oswald had given this information voluntarily to the Secret Service or the FBI concerning the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the newspapers so I assumed they knew about it.
Mr. REDLICH. And you assumed she had volunteered this information?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course now, I was a little concerned to begin with as to how it got out.
Mr. REDLICH. Why were you concerned?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, if she had told it to the FBI and the FBI only then how did it get in the newspapers?
Mr. REDLICH. What was the you say you were concerned that certain aspects of her story were being released. What was the nature of your concern?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was just wondering how that information got to the newspapers?
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't ask her because she didn't see any newspaper reporters at all.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask any of the agents of the FBI or the Secret Service?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Mr. Heitman.
Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Heitman tell you?
Mr. MARTIN. He said it didn't come from the Dallas office. He said it must have come from Washington. The Houston Chronicle brought it out.
Mr. REDLICH. By Washington he meant the Washington office?
Mr. MARTIN. Of the FBI, the Justice Department.
Mr. REDLICH. FBI. That was his opinion as to where this information could come from?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Mrs. Oswald why she had not revealed this information prior to that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I tried to stay as far away from this investigation as possible, because I didn't want to get into it at all to be real frank about it. I figured there are people better equipped than I to ferret out information and they have methods of doing it that I have no idea about.
Mr. REDLICH. At that time, however, you were acting as her business representative.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I had to refute something in the paper.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you assisting her at that time in the preparation of any narratives that she was preparing in connection with her story?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She has never written anything other than the manuscript that she wrote for the Commission. And we have never pre-prepared anything.

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Mr. DULLES. Has she had conversations with others, to your knowledge, who have been writing material, Isaac Don Levine, for example?
Mr. MARTIN. The only one would be Levine.
Mr. DULLES. The only one would be Isaac Don Levine?
Mr. MARTIN. Levine told me she told him that her husband was a Trotskyite. Now what that means, I don't know but he seemed to think quite a bit.
Mr. DULLES. Marina told Isaac Don Levine?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. That Marina's husband?
Mr. MARTIN. Lee Oswald was a Trotskyite.
Mr. DULLES. He was a Trotskyite.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, in what way do you consider yourself a patsy?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, because this, for instance----
Mr. REDLICH. May we introduce this in evidence so we know what we are talking about?
Mr. CHAIRMAN, I offer----
Mr. DULLES. Identify it.
Mr. REDLICH. In the course of the witness' explanation of his business representation of Mrs. Oswald the witness has presented before this Commission a list of arrangements that he has entered into or is considering entering into concerning the sale of certain aspects of Mrs. Oswald's story. This document is, we are told, written in Mr. Martin's handwriting. I show the witness Commission Exhibit No. 325 and ask you whether this document is one that you have brought before the Commission and whether its contents are as I have described them.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I ask that Commission Exhibit No. 325 be admitted.
Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 325 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. It is understood that a photostat of this exhibit will be made part of the permanent record of the Commission, and that the original will be returned to the witness.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you wouldn't leave us the original in this case because this was prepared for the Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. You can have the original.
Mr. DULLES. We will keep the original and we will be glad to give you a photostat for your records.
Mr. MARTIN. I have it right up here.
Mr. DULLES. Do you want to read that into the record, it is quite short and it might make the record more intelligible.
Mr. REDLICH. Since this is in the handwriting of the witness may I suggest that the witness read it?
Mr. DULLES. Right.
Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films, $75,000 movie and the TV rights, World Wide plus $7,500 plus expenses per film appearance, plus $1,500 per--plus expenses for personal appearance. Contract was signed February 11. Life Magazine was $5,000, North American rights for Lee had photo with rifle and pistol. Stern Magazine, $12,500, story serial rights for Germany and Italy only, with a 70-30 percent reciprocal for serial rights in Europe, 70 percent to Marina. Stern Magazine, $2,650 picture rights on the seven photos with same arrangements as above.
Mr. REDLICH. Finish the documents.
Mr. MARTIN. Meredith Press, $25,000 advance on world book rights. London Daily Mirror $2,209 guarantee on 50-50 reciprocal for British Commonwealth rights on rifle photo. Detroit Free Press stole photo and has sold it to foreign news media thereby leaving themselves liable. This Week Magazine, $1,500 for 500-word article. Total is $132,350.

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Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, it is in connection with this document that you have referred to yourself as a possible patsy?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one moment before that, how much has been received and how much is----
Mr. MARTIN. $50,000 of it. The rest is being held, $75,000 in Texitalia Films they have the money.
Mr. DULLES Who is they?
Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films. But they don't want to part with it until this is settled.
Mr. REDLICH. Until what is settled?
Mr. MARTIN. Until there is an amicable settlement between Marina Oswald and myself.
Mr. REDLICH. Concerning your representation of her?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You mean they are holding their own money and not paying it at the present time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. It hasn't been put in escrow or anything of that kind?
Mr. MARTIN. No. We have received $5,000 from Life Magazine. That is in an escrow account. I have a check for $2,400 from Stern Magazine, which is uncashed because the attorney McKenzie who has been hired by Robert wrote a letter to Stern Magazine saying that I had no authority to make any deals for Marina. So they stopped payment on the check. Of course, I haven't tried to cash the check, so it is sitting.
Mr. REDLICH. At this time, rather than go into the details of these business arrangements, I would like to revert to the question posed earlier in connection with this document, you referred to yourself as a patsy. Would you care to explain that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have put in approximately 2-1/2 months of good, hard work and grief trying in the first place, trying to keep the news media away from her and at the same time trying to sell her story.
Mr. REDLICH. Don't assume we know anything, tell us everything.
Mr. MARTIN. I had to leave my job at the Inn of the Six Flags to properly handle this which was the first of the year. I could not keep going on both jobs. These contracts were negotiated on the basis of my contract with her, which states that I have full power to sign any contracts for her in these fields. William McKenzie, who is, was hired, apparently, by Robert Oswald, and is acting in his behalf, I guess, although he is using Marina Oswald's name, has tried to cancel my contract retroactively. in other words, just like it was never there at all, and it just happened too suddenly for it not to have been planned.
Mr. REDLICH. What would have been planned? What is the plan that you suspect?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, the dropping of it--as soon as the money starts to come in, then the first thing they want to do is get rid of the personal manager and the attorney who has been taking all, who have been the buffers for the 2-1/2 months prior to that. The Secret Service was pulled off, there is apparently no danger at all concerning her life or anyone connected with her. So they feel perfectly safe in taking off, carrying on where we left off, utilizing all the work that we had put into it. This was not a decision that was made in two days.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you be more specific in terms of your suspicions with regard to the plan which you have alleged here was designed to get you off this job?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have letters from--one from Marina and one from McKenzie, that requests my discharge from this contractual agreement. Now they have actually no reason to cancel the contract. I have performed as far as these sales are concerned quite well, and, of course, those are just advance payments of $132,000. There would be more on royalties after that.
Mr. DULLES. Did you sign these agreements or Mr. Thorne or did Marina sign them?

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Mr. MARTIN. I did.
Mr. DULLES. These agreements with the news media?
Mr. MARTIN. I did.
Mr. DULLES. You signed them?
Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract that I have with Marina, "You will authorize me and approve for and in my behalf and in your discretion and decision the following: approve and permit the use of my name, photographs, likeness, voice, sound effects, characters, persons for all publicity, advertising and the promotion of any and all ventures desired by you to be undertaken by me and for the performance by me of any appearance or service. You are authorized, empowered and directed by me."
Mr. DULLES. I think we have a copy of this, do we not?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes. You are reading from----
Mr. MARTIN. My contract.
Mr. REDLICH. Yes, just so the record is clear, the contract between James Martin and Marina Oswald is Commission Exhibit 276 which was introduced in connection with Robert Oswald's testimony. Mr. Martin, there has been introduced in a prior hearing what is now Commission Exhibits Nos. 274 and 275, a letter from William McKenzie to you and a letter from William McKenzie to Mr. Thorne concerning the discharging of your services. Do you have any document which you wish to introduce at the present time concerning that--the reasons given for your discharge, because I would like to ask you questions concerning that?
Mr. LEECH. May I ask the date of the letter please, sir? Give me the date. I think we have the originals, sir.
Mr. REDLICH. There is one dated February 18, two of them dated February 18.
Mr. LEECH. Yes, one to Jim Martin and one to Mr. John Thorne.
Mr. REDLICH. One is addressed to Mr. James Martin and the other to Mr. John Thorne.
Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; we have the originals.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have with you any other letters in connection with the termination of Mr. Martin's services?
Mr. MARTIN. One from Marina Oswald.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you said earlier in your testimony that you were building a public image of Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell the Commission what you mean by that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, in this type of thing----
Mr. REDLICH. May I interrupt and suggest you don't thumb through----
Mr. MARTIN. Excuse me. We were trying to create in the public mind an image of a bereaved widow and a simple lost girl. And I think we did actually. This was for her, as I say, for her benefit. She has received some $68,000 in contributions, and the image is not all true.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us in respect to which in your opinion the image is not true?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, as I mentioned before about the bible, this is a very small incident, she has received numerous bibles in the mail, and to my knowledge has never read the first page of one, and most of them are in Russian. This is a small thing really but it is part of her image, that she is a religious person. She wants to be thought of as we have built her now but she doesn't conform to that image.
Mr. REDLICH. In what way, how?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she is lazy, for one thing.
Mr. REDLICH. Lazy in what respect?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, as far as even taking care of the children. The children bother her, I mean to her they are a constant upset. When she left our home to go up to Denton, my wife offered to keep the baby there at the house if she liked, and Marina took her up on it and then Robert told her she had better take the baby with her. She hadn't seen the baby for over a week. And the first day she was back she was willing to leave the baby again.

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Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything else?
Mr. MARTIN. Her lack of, well, humbleness as far as all these contributions are concerned. She takes it as a matter of fact- -she takes it for granted. She is quite unhappy when the contributions slack off.
Mr. REDLICH. Has she discussed the amount of contributions with you?
Mr. MARTIN. I have kept her informed all along on it.
Mr. REDLICH. Has she indicated that there is some relationship between the story that she reveals to the public and the contributions which she will receive?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you be more specific about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has read newspaper articles, for instance, that I haven't written but I have directed.
Mr. REDLICH. Directed?
Mr. MARTIN. By giving them information.
Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature----
Mr. MARTIN. To build it up.
Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature of these articles?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I recall one, I wonder if I have it, I guess I don't have it, that was written by Bill Burrus of the Times Herald in Dallas. It was a very good article, and not quite true, we will say. It is shaded in truth.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have the article with you?
Mr. MARTIN. Here is one Bill Burrus did that is when she went to midnight mass.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin has submitted to the Commission an article which does not carry a date or the name of the publication in which it appears, but is headed "Marina Oswald attended mass, had quiet Yule", by Bill Burrus.
Mr. MARTIN. That was the Dallas Times Herald.
Mr. REDLICH. Since we would like to question the witness about this, I would like to label it Commission Exhibit No. 326 and ask it be introduced in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted with no objection.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 326 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. I hand you Commission Exhibit 326, Mr. Martin. Will you tell us in what respects this article is not true?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wouldn't say it is strictly not true. But it embellishes the truth.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you be specific in terms of references to the particular article?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, let's see, is this where she went to church?
Mr. DULLES. Did she go to church?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. LEECH. It is my partner's church.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, "she wandered around the secret quarters for long periods of time, sometimes she listened to Christmas carols over radio or television", which I believe is not true. I don't believe I told that; that was just added in there. "Marina continued her studies of the English language and watched television, including her favorite Steve Allen show". She doesn't even like Steve Allen. And, of course, she is never studying English.
Mr. DULLES. Was this information that you gave to Mr. Burrus?
Mr. MARTIN. No. That is the trouble with newspapers. I have told Bill Burrus that she watches Steve Allen. She does but just for lack of anything else to do. Now I didn't say anything about the Christmas carols nor about studying the English language.
Mr. DULLES. You say she has not been studying the English language?
Mr. MARTIN. No, she is learning it quite rapidly because she had to in her own defense in order to converse with people. When she was living with us, there was no one there that spoke Russian so she had to learn English in order to converse.
Mr. DULLES. Is there anything else in this particular article that you would either regard as unslanted or untrue?

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Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Could you give us other examples where----
Mr. MARTIN. There is the first one.
Mr. DULLES. If you are planning to comment on that I would like to introduce it in evidence.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. This will go with it.
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has submitted to the Commission an article appearing in the Dallas Times Herald on Sunday, December 15, 1963, the headline reading, "Marina Oswald, all the pity in the world won't help", written by Bill Burrus. This has now been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 327, and I ask that it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. This will be admitted, if there is no objection.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 327 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 327 and ask you to tell the Commission in what respects if any there is material in this article which you regard as untrue or exaggerated or slanted?
Mr. MARTIN. Here is a sentence in here, "She pores over the letters reaching her more than a thousand so far and is choked with emotion by the compassion and support they express", the only thing she did actually was to open the letters and did not open all of them. The only letters she read or attempted to read were ones written in Russian.
Mr. REDLICH. What was her reaction to those letters?
Mr. MARTIN. Acceptance of it but no real thankfulness. The further it went, the longer it went, it seemed the less she cared whether----
Mr. DULLES. Did Burrus get this slanted material from you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she specifically said in response to these letters that is leading you to the conclusion that you have reached?
Mr. MARTIN. That she specifically said?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, one day she opened a letter and there was a dollar in it and she said, "Oh, a dollar", and threw it on the table, and there are little things that living as closely as we did, you can't really recall the specific incidents but there is a general feeling, and there is a complete lack of compassion as to what all these people are doing for her or trying to do for her.
Mr. REDLICH. But you can't recall anything specific that she said which would indicate this lack of compassion?
Mr. MARTIN. No, other than "the American people are crazy for sending me that money".
Mr. REDLICH. Is that a quotation from Mrs. Oswald? She said the American people are crazy for sending this money?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she elaborate on it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you reply to that?
Mr. MARTIN. I told her that they felt sorry for her and she didn't say anything.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she make any other comments of that nature?
Mr. MARTIN. Other than that dollar bill. Those are the only ones I can remember specifically.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you continue your examination of Commission Exhibit No. 327?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, "unlike her husband, Marina is devout. She is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church", that is not true. She was not a devout Greek orthodox. She was not devout anything so far as religion is concerned.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever say anything about the baptism of her child in that church to you?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, now let's see, she was supposed to have gotten June baptized without her husband's knowledge.

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Mr. REDLICH. You say she was supposed to have, where did you get that information?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I read it somewhere prior to this article. This article has it in there. I didn't give him this information. He got it from some other article, and I recall reading it. And when she read this, she commented on it. She said he did know that June was being baptized.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she read that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. In English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDUCE. She knew English well enough to read this?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. It took her a while to read it.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention----
Mr. MARTIN. This is December 15.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention of the Commission to the date which is Sunday, December 15. You say as of Sunday, December 15, which is a little over 3 weeks after she came to live with you, Mrs. Oswald knew English well enough to be able to read this and understand it?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to read it legibly, I mean not to understand every word of it but she understood the biggest part of the article. I was quite amazed at how much she could read. She can't read writing or says she can't, but she can read printing or typing. Here is another one now, "she is poring over children's primary readers and studying the Russian-English dictionary attempting to understand all the words and talk about her." She had one child's book that one of the Secret Service men brought her, and she looked at it and that was the end of that.
Mr. REDLICH. Where did this information appearing in this story come from? Did you tell that to Mr. Burrus?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald read this story and saw things that were not quite true, did she discuss that fact with you?
Mr. MARTIN. On one occasion, let's see, what was it--it may have been in this article. Oh, yes, about the baptism. She said that Lee did know about the baptism. This was gleaned from some place else.
Mr. DULLES. Before or afterward?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said before. Before the baptism. "She washes clothes for herself and June Lee, she cooks her own meals favoring macaroni and other casserole dishes." She did not cook her own meals. She cooked twice while she was at the house in two and a half months.
Mr. REDLICH. Is this fact one which you related to Mr. Burrus, the fact she cooked her own meals?
Mr. MARTIN. I didn't say she cooked her own meals but she cooked.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what reaction if any Mrs. Oswald had in reading this comment?
Mr. MARTIN. The only one she commented on was she doesn't like macaroni, it is noodles.
Mr. REDLICH. But Mrs. Oswald voiced no objection to your giving this information to the newspapers which to use your expression was not quite true?
Mr. MARTIN. No. "Marina now has the first dish washer she has ever used and she thinks it is wonderful". Actually, she didn't like it but now in most of this stuff Bill Burrus would ask me a question like, "Does she have a dish washer", and I would say "yes", and he would elaborate on it. This is quite a sympathetic article. "Marina gets up at about 9 a.m. every day." She always got up between 10 and 11. " She asked Secret Service men to read some of the letters to her". I don't recall any incident where she did.
Mr. REDLICH. Was that also a fact which you gave to Mr. Burrus?
Mr. MARTIN. No. "As the hours and days tick by Marina watches television and struggles with newspapers. These things bring tears to her eyes, pictures of President Kennedy, Jackie, Lee Oswald, Mrs. Tippit, the wife of the slain police officer. Sometimes she turns off the set." That is not true.

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Mr. REDLICH. Could you be a little bit more specific about that? Were there instances in which she saw these people mentioned and what was her reaction?
Mr. MARTIN. No real reaction at all. Just there on television.
Mr. DULLES. You started to describe earlier I think when she saw a picture of Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy and she made certain remarks. I don't know that we finished that.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes; she did. She remarked, "Oh, Jackie, Jackie", and that was it. There wasn't-kind of shook her head. That is in this article, too, and that is true. Of course, this last paragraph, "The agents speak through curtains and she feels hunted sometimes despite friendly letters and packages". I don't think she has ever felt hunted or in danger. She has expressed that opinion. She didn't feel that anyone was-- anyone intended to harm her.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever express any ideas about going back to the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. She said it once and I questioned her about it. She said she was just-what was it--just joking. She used a funny sounding word for joking, I don't remember what it was.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any further comments with regard to this particular exhibit?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. I suggest this would be a good time for recess, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. All right. The Commission will be adjourned until 3 p.m., this afternoon. Would you report with your counsel at that time?
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. Gentlemen, the Commission will come to order. Are you ready to continue the testimony, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Will you carry forward, Mr. Redlich?
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to hand you a group of newspaper clippings which have not as yet been introduced in evidence and I would ask you to look through them and to pick out any which you feel create an image of Mrs. Marina Oswald which you feel does not conform to the reality of her personality, as you know it, and ask you in regard to each one to tell us in what respect the facts as reported in each of these clippings do not conform to the real person as you know her.
Mr. DULLES. I assume we can avoid repetition, can't we?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Incidents here have been touched on in other papers and we don't need to touch them again.
Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman. During the intermission we have gone through all of the newspaper clippings and eliminated the duplicate stories and hope to eliminate duplicate facts as we go along.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, this one is inaccurate that it doesn't have anything to do with her image, so to speak. It says she spent Christmas--
Mr. REDLICH. For the sake of the record if we are going to have comment on them I would like to have them introduced as evidence because the record wouldn't state what they are about. Are you going to make a comment?
Mr. MARTIN. Do you want me to?
Mr. REDLICH. If you are going to make comment about it, if you feel there is some inaccuracy here then I would like to introduce that in evidence, since apparently you are.
Mr. MARTIN. It is inaccurate as far as the date in the article is concerned.
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has handed to us a newspaper story which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 328.
Mr. DULLES. Could we have the inaccuracy mentioned here?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes, the headline of which is "Mrs. Oswald Will Bare Life of Mate" and I request it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No.
Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 328 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 328 and ask you if there are any inaccuracies in that statement.
Mr. MARTIN. "Mrs. Oswald and Her Children Now Make Their Home at an

1

Undisclosed Hotel" which is inaccurate--"and it was in that motel room, somewhere in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that the youngest Oswald child spent her first Christmas. There was a tree, toys and even a visit from Mrs. Oswald's brother who lives 30 miles to the north in Denton, Tex." That was the inaccuracy that she spent Christmas not in a motel but in our home.
Mr. DULLES. That is about from 3 o'clock in the afternoon as I recall until 7:30 in the evening.
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; that was Thanksgiving.
Mr. DULLES. That was Thanksgiving. Spent the whole day of Christmas in your home?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she lived there. She was at our home 24 hours a day. This one--
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before the Commission a newspaper story which we have labeled as Commission Exhibit No. 329, the headline of which reads, "Money Gifts to Tippit's Near $200,000 Mark."
Mr. Chairman, I request that Commission Exhibit No. 329 be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No.
Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 329 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Exhibit No. 329 and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect.
Mr. MARTIN. The article states that Mrs. Shirley Williamson, a Fort Worth housewife, who felt compassion for the widow, Mrs. Oswald, and the two babies said the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached $76,000." The fund that Mrs. Williamson collected amounted to some $2,600. That was her total. That is the inaccuracy there.
Mr. DULLES. Is she referring to the funds she collected or the whole collections?
Mr. MARTIN. Her funds. This has come up numerous times. We even called her about it one time. She had given out press releases that she had collected personally, I think, in excess of $8,000, whereas what she was doing was adding what she had collected to what had already been sent to Marina, and saying that she was holding that money.
Mr. DULLES. But even that total is exaggerated, is it not?
Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes.
Mr. DULLES. The total collections?
Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this article also makes reference to the fund on behalf of the wife of Officer Tippit with which, of course, you have no connection. I would like to ask you, however, whether at the time you extended the offer to Marina Oswald to live in your home you were aware of the fact that there were funds being raised for Officer Tippit's wife.
Mr. MARTIN. I was undoubtedly aware of it but I don't recall any conscious knowledge of it or thinking of it.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you were aware at the time that there were any funds coming in on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. You were not aware?
Mr. MARTIN. Not aware, no.
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has offered to, has presented to, the Commission a newspaper story appearing in the Buffalo Evening News, December 7, 1963, headline of which reads, "Oswald's Widow Reported Hoping to be U.S. Citizen." This story has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 330 and I ask that it be introduced in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. None.
Mr. DULLES. Accepted.
(The newspaper article referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 330 for identification and received in evidence.)

2

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I show you Commission's Exhibit No. 330 and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect to the best of your knowledge?
Mr. MARTIN. In the second paragraph it says, "Mrs. Oswald, 23," which is inaccurate--"Russian-born Mother of Three--"
Mr. REDLICH. Will you state the inaccuracy?
Mr. MARTIN. The age is inaccurate. She is 22, "Russian-born Mother of Three" that is inaccurate. She is the mother of two, "burst into tears when she learned at least $7,700 had been sent to her by sympathetic Americans." There was no burst of tears.
Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell the Commission what the reaction was?
Mr. MARTIN. I would say of happiness rather than--she was glad that that was there, which is normal.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she told you?
Mr. MARTIN. No. This was December 7. No, I have no recollection of anything that she said?
Mr. DULLES. Didn't you testify before, maybe it is with regard to another or similar clipping, that she had some reference to the silly Americans who were giving this money?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was a comment she had made at sometime or another. I don't know whether it was during this particular thing or not. I think it was further on.
Mr. DULLES. On a similar occasion?
Mr. MARTIN. A little later date, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have commented on the respects in which the newspaper clippings were at variance with the facts about Marina Oswald as you knew them. Are there any other facts which perhaps were not reflected in these clippings but which you might be aware of in respect to which the public image of Marina Oswald differed from the true person that you knew on the basis of your contact with her?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Of course, she is not the least bit frugal. She spends money quite freely, which it is her money to spend., but it won't last very long at the rate it is going.
Mr. REDLICH. In connection with that did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you the financial difficulties she may have encountered while she was married to Lee Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She remarked one time that she had always wished for $500 just to do with as she wanted. She also mentioned that the small amount of money that it took them to live upon. She said it ran between $130 and $135 a month.
Representative FORD. Did she complain about this limited amount?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how she could live on that little and she said well, all they had was rent and food, and occasionally she would get a dress or get a pair of shoes. She said that she didn't object to it.
Representative FORD. But when more money became available she found ways and means of spending it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Well, she mentioned one time to me that--I told her she was spending too much money, and she said, "Well, when it is all gone I will go to work." That is--
Mr. DULLES. That is a little Russian, may I say for the record.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this Commission has recovered information to the effect that the public announcements which you made concerning the amount of funds which had been collected on Marina Oswald's behalf actually reflected figures that were less than the amount which had actually been collected on her behalf. Without getting into specific figures at this time, are these reports correct in your opinion?
Mr. MARTIN. Which report?
Mr. REDLICH. The report
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, yes, we were obtaining a smaller figure, that is true.
Mr. REDLICH. That is true. Did you consult with Marina Oswald on this policy on reporting to the press a lesser figure than had actually been collected?

3

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. What was your reason for doing it?
Mr. MARTIN. To--well, the money she had collected was considerable, and most people in their life don't accumulate that much money in their entire lifetime. What we were trying to do for her was to build enough of a enough capital to furnish her from the interest a steady income. And by keeping the figure down figured it would increase.
Mr. REDLICH. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you be a little more specific about your reason?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, so people would keep contributing to her cause.
Mr. REDLICH. And she was in accord with this policy of keeping the public amount at a low figure so that people would contribute to her cause?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to revert to a point that you made this morning to clear up the record. You said hat you left your job at the Six Flags Inn Motel because of your obligations to Marina Oswald. Did you leave the job voluntarily or were you fired?
Mr. MARTIN. I left voluntarily. I actually left on the 15th of December, and I had a week's vacation coming, they gave me that which paid me to the 1st of January.
Mr. REDLICH. When you met Mrs. Oswald in late November and in your conversations with her at that time, did she discuss with you the fact of her husband's trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you now--
Mr. MARTIN. She did at a later date, sometime in January before she went to the Commission.
Mr. REDLICH. When did you first learn of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was from newspaper accounts.
Mr. REDLICH. When you read it in the newspapers did you ask Marina about?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. What prompted you to discuss with Marina in January the question of her knowledge about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see she told me when the FBI was questioning her one day, she told me that they had information that he had attempted suicide, and that particular day she didn't want to see the FBI at all, and she was a little bit unhappy with them and I just asked her what else did she learn.
Mr. REDLICH. Who else was present at this conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think anybody.
Mr. REDLICH. Just you and Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. DULLES. Who was this who had attempted suicide, I didn't catch that?
Mr. MARTIN. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. At what time?
Mr. MARTIN. That was in Russia sometime before, I think before he met her.
Mr. DULLES. And she said she had heard this from the FBI or the FBI had asked her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. The FBI had read, I think, in his manuscript that he had attempted suicide.
Mr. DULLES. And they asked her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know that. Yes. And at that time I asked her if she learned anything else, and she said no, but that they still didn't know that she knew that he had gone to Mexico, and at that time we were talking about the Commission, that general area of time, and I mentioned to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her why she had not revealed knowledge of her trip--of her knowledge of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. I can't recall exactly whether I did or not.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her?
Mr. MARTIN. I have a recollection but I have no idea what was said.

4

Mr. REDLICH. Did you and she discuss the purpose of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you say you advised her to tell this Commission about that trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. When you were :here and she testified did you inquire of her as to whether in fact she did tell this Commission about the trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. I inquired of John Thorne and he said that she had.
Mr. REDLICH. But in connection with the Nixon incident, you indicated earlier in your testimony that you had not inquired of her as to whether she had told this Commission about the Nixon incident.
Mr. MARTIN. Right.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you think that the Nixon incident was of less importance than the Mexican trip?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't quite believe the Nixon incident.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you believe it now?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I don't know if there is any corroboration other than her say so.
Mr. REDLICH. It was because you had doubts about the actual existence of the incident that you didn't pursue with her the question as to whether she should tell this Commission about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I didn't tell her not to say anything about it. I didn't mention it specifically at all. The only thing I told her to do was to tell the Commission the truth in all cases.
Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of each day's testimony while she was here before this Commission did you discuss the nature of her testimony with her?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how the day went. And she would tell me, "fine," and that was the end of it.
Mr. REDLICH. But you did inquire specifically about the Mexico trip?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I knew she lied about that to the FBI.
Mr. REDLICH. Are there any other incidents you knew she had lied about to the FBI?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. That is the only one?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Marina Oswald ever discuss the question of her husband's rifle practice?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I recall that ever being asked of her was at the press conference here in Washington, and I never specifically asked her at all, whether he practiced.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever discuss with her the question of Lee Oswald's ownership of a rifle?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. When you discussed the General Walker incident with her, did you discuss his ownership of a rifle?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing, I think about the only thing I asked her about that was how he got there and how he got back.
Mr. REDLICH. What did she say?
Mr. MARTIN. She said he walked and took the bus.
Mr. REDLICH. And you didn't ask her what weapon he had shot at General Walker with?
Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the newspaper, it was a rifle. And there were many things I didn't ask about because I was previously informed through the news or I thought I was anyway.
Mr. REDLICH. You specifically, with regard to the rifle, you are telling this Commission that you had no conversations with Marina Oswald concerning her husband's practice with the rifle either in Dallas or in New Orleans.
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--I think I did discuss with her one time at the rifle range out in Grand Prairie was it, wherever it was, that the owner had seen Lee Harvey Oswald out there with a rifle, and he drove up in a car.
Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"?

5

Mr. MARTIN. The owner of the rifle range.
Mr. REDLICH. You say they drove up in a car?
Mr. MARTIN. He drove up in a car.
Mr. REDLICH. The owner of the rifle range?
Mr. MARTIN. No; Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. REDLICH. Drove to the rifle range in a car?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And----
Mr. DULLES. Did he drive himself?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, this is a report from the rifle range owner who said he had seen Lee Harvey Oswald there on numerous occasions practicing, and that he drove up in a car by himself. He always came by himself, and I did ask her if he could drive and she said no, definitely.
Mr. REDLICH. Where did you read this report or where did you hear about it?
Mr. MARTIN. It was right after the start there, in the Dallas papers.
Mr. REDLICH. This was something you read. This was not a personal conversation you had with the owner of the rifle range?
Mr. MARTIN. No, it was a newspaper account.
Mr. REDLICH. Were there any other conversations you had with Mrs. Oswald concerning rifle practice?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you have any conversations with her concerning Lee Oswald's ability as a rifleman?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald ever discuss with you the fears that she claims to have had that Lee Oswald would attempt to kill a public figure as a result specifically of the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No, other than when she told me that she told him that if he tried anything similar to the Walker incident she would have him arrested. And she never mentioned to me a particular figure that he would do anything like that. She evidently had it though or she wouldn't have made the threat to him.
Mr. REDLICH. Other than the Nixon incident, and the Walker incident, Mrs. Oswald never related to you any other specific incident with regard to the attempt to take the life of anyone?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina, ever indicate to you her feeling toward guns; did she ever indicate any apprehension about having one in the house?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Related to rifles, pistols?
Mr. MARTIN. I have a .22 rifle in the house, for instance. Of course, she may never have seen it. But I don't believe the question ever came up at all.
Representative FORD. She never indicated to you that she had told Lee Harvey Oswald that she was apprehensive about his use of a gun or his having a gun in the household?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to ask you whether Mrs. Oswald ever discussed with you any aspects of the life of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald while they were in Russia.
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see now--she mentioned one time to both my wife and I that Lee had gone to Moscow, I believe, and an old boy friend called her up and she went out with him while Lee was gone.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you at that time the purpose of Lee's trip to Moscow?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you whether she had told Lee about her going out with this old boy friend?
Mr. MARTIN. She said she did tell him.
Mr. REDLICH. By the way, would you recall when Lee made this trip to Moscow?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think she mentioned the date at all. She may have but I don't recall.

6

Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate in connection with this trip of Lee Oswald to Moscow that she herself subsequently went to Moscow while he was there?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think she said he was gone one day or one night and came back the next day.
Mr. REDLICH. So that on the basis of your recollection, if there was a trip in which Lee Oswald went to Moscow and she joined him there this was a different trip from the one you are talking about?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Just to make sure of this you say to the best of your recollection she said he went there for one day and returned?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Can you think of any other aspects of their life in the Soviet Union that Marina discussed with you.
Mr. MARTIN. He used to like her aunt. Now, which aunt I don't know. Yes, I do. It is the aunt that is working as a secretary and her husband is on a pension. She has an aunt and an uncle by blood. Now, the aunt's husband is on a pension, and the uncle's--The uncle is a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet Army.
Mr. REDLICH. Now, the aunt and uncle that you say she liked very much, is this the aunt and uncle with whom she was living at the time she met Lee Oswald or is this a different aunt and uncle?
Mr. MARTIN. That was all very--always confusing to me because she wouldn't call the spouse of the aunt, for instance, her uncle, and I couldn't tell all the time which party she was talking about.
Mr. DULLES. These were both relatives to Marina, therefore, they were not married.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, no; they were not married to each other.
Mr. DULLES. That is what I mean, yes.
Mr. MARTIN. There were two couples, and the aunt in one couple and the uncle in the other couple. But she didn't refer to the opposite spouse as an aunt and uncle.
Mr. REDLICH. Does the name Berlov refresh your recollection any?
Mr. MARTIN. Berlov?
Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you anything about her education, what school she attended?
Mr. MARTIN. No, just the school of pharmacy, and she compared her grade school or our grade school, which is, I guess similar to our grade school in high school or Junior high, anyway.
Representative FORD. She only referred to the pharmacy training?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. As any special training she received?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. But she did discuss that with you?
Mr. MARTIN. Not at length. Just stated the fact that she had finished pharmacy school.
Representative FORD. But she didn't discuss any other training or schooling of a special nature.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss any, special training that Lee might have had while he was in Russia?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss Lee's employment while he was in Russia?
Mr. MARTIN. Only that he was unhappy where he was working.
Representative FORD. Did she tell you where he worked, the kind of work he was doing?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I have an idea it was in a factory of some kind, whether she told me that or whether it was an assumption, I don't know.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss their apartment, their living quarters in Minsk?

7

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said she had a one-room apartment, and had a balcony on it, and that as soon as the baby was born they were going to move to a larger one. I questioned her about that because I understand it is quite difficult to get more than a one-room apartment in Russia and she said, well, Lee was an American and he could get things the Russians couldn't get.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald give you the impression that in general she and Lee Oswald had better treatment than other Russians?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and actually her past life even before she met Lee seemed a little bit strange to me, going to the opera, taking vacations and holidays as she says. I understand it is quite expensive to go to the opera, and she was making, what did she say, 45 rubles a month, and she would take a girl friend with her when she went to the opera. Now, how much that cost, I don't know.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever question her about her financial Situation in Russia?
Mr. MARTIN. I asked her how she could afford it and she said she got by. She was living at home or with her aunt and uncle. So I imagine their expenses there weren't high.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention any extra income which Lee Harvey Oswald may have had apart from his job?
Mr. MARTIN. No; I asked her about that specifically because I had heard an account that he was supposed to be getting Western Union money orders, and asked her about that. She didn't know what a Western Union money order was, for one thing, so I reworded the question and asked if he was getting money from anyone else other than where he was working, and she said no.
Mr. REDLICH. This was true of this life in the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the uncle with whom she lived who was apparently a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet army?
Mr. MARTIN. No; except she didn't like him.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she say why?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She preferred her aunt, who has the husband on the pension.
Mr. REDLICH. Can you search your memory at this point and tell this Commission anything that you have not yet told us about Marina's conversations with you concerning her life in the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. Her aunt used to bring food and liquor home after parties had at the government building where she was working. Other than talking about--she pulled one tooth out before she came to the United States. A tooth was either crooked or broken and she pulled the tooth out. That caused the other one to twist. I don't know what that was. Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you while she was in the Soviet Union that she drank beer, wine, liquor?
Mr. MARTIN. Vodka.
Representative FORD. When she came to the United States, you could observe it, did she drink beer, wine, liquor of any kind?
Mr. MARTIN. She drank, I guess she drank a bottle of beer every day, and occasionally she would drink some vodka.
Representative FORD. But not a heavy drinker?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, have you ever been curious about how Mrs. Oswald was ever able to leave the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wasn't, until Don Levine brought up the subject. Of course, I have no idea what it entails to get into Russia or out of it as far as that is concerned. But according to Mr. Levine, it is extremely difficult for people to get out of Russia, especially when they have had the training that Marina has had.
Mr. REDLICH. By training you mean what?
Mr. MARTIN. Pharmacy. He said they spent quite a bit of money on her training, and he doesn't understand how she got out of Russia on such short notice.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask this question of Marina Oswald?

8

Mr. MARTIN. She said that Lee arranged it, and that is all she would say.
Mr. REDLICH. She never discussed any other aspect of her departure from the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Let's see, they were in Moscow, she waited a couple of days while he was, how did she put it, collecting money or getting money together to come over to the States. I have forgotten the name of the hotel they stayed in. She even remarked they had pancakes every morning and she didn't like pancakes.
Mr. REDLICH. In terms of her official negotiations to leave the Soviet Union, you asked her nothing other than the question that I have already discussed with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No, she said that Lee arranged everything.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to ask you a few questions now about some of the individuals that Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald knew in Fort Worth and Dallas, and ask you in each case whether Marina Oswald discussed any of these individuals with you. The first is George Bouhe.
Mr. MARTIN. I know the name but I don't think Marina has ever mentioned him; Katya Ford has though.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with George Bouhe?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us what Katya Ford has told you about Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. MARTIN. It was relating to Marina--I think Katya Ford and Bouhe are friends, and they had been discussing Marina all the time she was in seclusion, and wondering what had happened to her, where she was. Now this was after the news was out where she was.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with--
Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, by "in seclusion", you mean at the time she was with you in your house?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and the press didn't know where she was.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt or his wife Jean De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed either George or Jean De Mohrenschildt with Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed George and Jean De Mohrenschildt with anyone else?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear the name mentioned before?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I would remember that name.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with Peter Gregory?
Mr. MARTIN. I met him once, maybe twice, at the Inn. He was interpreting for Marina, for the Secret Service, I believe, before Lee Gopadze got there.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know who he is?
Mr. MARTIN. I understand he is a geologist, and he also teaches Russian.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss either Peter Gregory or Paul Gregory with you?
Mr. MARTIN. She mentioned--I don't know which one.
Mr. REDLICH. One is the father and one is a son.
Mr. MARTIN. I think it is the older gentleman that I met. She mentioned that she liked him.
Mr. REDLICH. The older gentleman?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I think she corresponded with him. I know she corresponded with him.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Gregory's son?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever met him?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. REDLICH. You have had no conversations with anyone else about him?

9

Mr. MARTIN. No. We were I think John Thorne and I were talking about at sometime we may need an interpreter, and I mentioned his name in that instance.
Mr. REDLICH. That would be the elder Mr. Gregory?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. But nothing on Paul Gregory.
Mr. REDLICH. Nothing on Paul Gregory?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Paul Gregory is a student at the University of Oklahoma?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the fact that she had helped tutor the son of Peter Gregory?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you familiar with--strike that. Do you have any personal acquaintanceship with Gary Taylor?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever heard the name of Gary Taylor?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Marina Oswald has never discussed that name with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Elena Hall?
Mr. MARTIN. Elena Hall? No.
Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina ever discussed her with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. The name John R. Hall, who is the husband of Mrs. Elena Hall?
Mr. MARTIN. No, it sounded a little familiar but I can't place anything on it.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Katherine Ford?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how you came to know her?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she had contacted Marina a couple of times by letter and--
Representative FORD. While she was staying at your home?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes--well, she sent the letter to Grand Prairie, the letters, Christmas cards, and I think two letters after that. So I called her and Marina wanted to, expressed a desire to, talk to her. So I called her and Marina talked to her on the phone. I think every time she talked to her she talked nearly an hour.
Representative FORD. In Russian or in English?
Mr. MARTIN. In Russian.
Mr. DULLES. Was it on the telephone?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you the gist of these conversations?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever relate to you whether she had ever lived in Mrs. Ford's home?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe she had for a very short time.
Mr. REDLICH. You mean Marina related this to you?
Mr. MARTIN. I think Mrs. Ford told me that.
Mr. REDLICH. How did you get this knowledge, from Marina or from Mrs. Ford? Did you ever discuss this with Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I know Marina likes her home, I mean likes the house that they live in.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Marina how it came about that she was separated from her husband and living at the home of Mrs. Ford?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did any of Marina's other Russian-speaking friends in the Dallas-Fort Worth area write letters to her while she was at your home?
Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine wrote at least once a week and--
Mr. DULLES. Once a week?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Marina did not answer, didn't answer any of the letters and didn't call her.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Paine attempt to reach Marina by phone?

10

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, until I had my telephone number changed and then she couldn't find the phone number so she came over to the house.
Mr. REDLICH. What happened when she came to the house?
Mr. MARTIN. Nothing, I let her in the house and Marina and the children were back in the den and the Secret Service men went back into the den, and I don't believe she knew that she was there.
Mr. DULLES. Was the change in number, did it have anything to do with Marina as objecting to receiving the calls?
Mr. MARTIN. No. That was strictly because the press pressure.
Mr. DULLES. The presence of the press?
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to go back to this incident when Mrs. Paine came to see Marina. You say Marina did not know that Mrs. Paine was there?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she knew it.
Mr. REDLICH. She knew that Mrs. Paine was there?
Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine didn't know that Marina was there.
Mr. REDLICH. But Marina knew that Mrs. Paine was there?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina see Mrs. Paine at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to Marina at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, before and after.
Mr. REDLICH. At the time Mrs. Paine was there did you personally tell Marina that Mrs. Paine wanted to see her?
Mr. MARTIN. I told her before Mrs. Paine came in the door that Mrs. Paine was here, and she said she didn't want to see her. She stayed in the den, and Mrs. Paine was in the living room.
Mr. REDLICH. Then did you convey this message to Mrs. Paine yourself?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Who did?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she came with the intention or for the purpose of bringing a package to Marina that she had received in the mail, and I don't believe she knew that Marina was living there. I told her at that time that because of security that Marina wasn't seeing anyone but I don't believe she knew that Marina was at that address until later.
Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Paine called your home prior to the change of phone, did you speak to Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. No, my wife did.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the nature of the conversations between your wife and Mrs. Paine as reported to you?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, she called and asked for Marina or asked to get in touch with Marina. My wife gave me the number and I guess I called her back.
Mr. REDLICH. You called Mrs. Paine back?
Mr. MARTIN. A day or two later, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. What did you say to her?
Mr. MARTIN. I told her that under the present circumstances she just didn't want to see anybody, and also the security on her didn't permit her to go out too far. That we could possibly arrange a meeting at some middle point later on.
Mr. REDLICH. Was Marina free to see anyone she wanted to see?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And the reason she didn't see Mrs. Paine was because she didn't want to see Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I asked her several times to call her, at least call Mrs. Paine and tell her she didn't want to see her, and she just shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't want to talk to her.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you why she didn't want to talk to her?
Mr. MARTIN. She said something about Mrs. Paine talking too much, and she didn't like Mrs. Paine's children.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Marina had lived with Mrs. Paine?

11

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Mrs. Paine had taken the Oswald family to New Orleans and had--
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Gone to New Orleans and brought them back to Irving, Tex.?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is why I felt she owed Mrs. Paine something.
Mr. REDLICH. What was Marina's attitude toward your comments?
Mr. MARTIN. She just didn't want to talk to her.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you yourself ever meet Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe that meeting?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, the first time I met her was we went over to the Paine's house to pick up some of Marina's belongings.
Mr. REDLICH. Who is "we"?
Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne and I.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall about when this was?
Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was about a week after she had moved in, maybe shorter, maybe sooner than that. There was not much said at all at that meeting. Then when she came out to the house she talked at length, but it was--
Mr. REDLICH. There is another occasion when you say she came?
Mr. MARTIN. When she came to my house.
Mr. REDLICH. That was the same occasion that you referred to earlier when she came to pick up a package?
Mr. MARTIN. To deliver a package.
Mr. REDLICH. To deliver a package, I am sorry. Could you relate what happened at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. I was quite distracted by the children. It was rather a stiff meeting or conversation.
Representative FORD. This was the meeting at Mrs. Paine's house?
Mr. MARTIN. No, my house
Representative FORD. Your house?
Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine brought, I think, a package and some food, cookies, things like that, for Marina, and--
Mr. DULLES. Those are from Mrs. Paine to Marina, but the package was a third.--
Mr. MARTIN. The package came through the mail.
Mr. DULLES. That you understand, but the cookies came from Mrs. Paine.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I believe she brought some toys for the children. What the toys were, I don't recall. Her children were running back and forth through the living room making quite a bit of noise.
Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Paine's children?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I wasn't really paying too much attention to what she was saying. I was wanting her to leave. I didn't ask her to leave but I wasn't saying much to foster the conversation. Then she left in, I guess, 15 minutes.
Mr. REDLICH. What did Mrs. Paine say to you?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy--
Mr. DULLES. Was she disturbed, I mean was she annoyed, visibly annoyed, that Marina wouldn't see her. She didn't know Marina was in the house, I realize that.
Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know Marina was in the house. I am certain she didn't.
Mr. REDLICH. You mean her children were running around the house though, weren't they?
Mr. MARTIN. Her children were running in the living room and dining room.
Mr. DULLES. But not into the den?
Mr. MARTIN. But not into the den and kitchen.
Representative FORD. Do you have a door on the den so you can close the den off?

12

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She talked mostly about generalities and she would like to see Marina to make sure she is well taken care of, and so on. She was concerned about her. And she came back after that time, she came back once more. I wasn't there. My wife answered the door and didn't invite her in.
Mr. DULLES. How long a trip is it from your house to Mrs. Paine's, roughly, a few miles?
Mr. MARTIN. No, a good 20 miles.
Mr. DULLES. A good 20 miles?
Mr. MARTIN. Because it is 30 miles out to the Inn, and she lives about 8 or 10 miles toward me from the Inn, so it is about 20 miles.
Mr. REDLICH. Your wife did not invite Mrs. Paine into the house at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Was this at Marina's urging?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Mrs. Paine was quite upset at that--that is what Wanda said, she looked upset at that time.
Representative FORD. On this occasion, did Mrs. Paine know Marina was in the house?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ask where she was, specifically?
Mr. MARTIN. No
Mr. DULLES. She didn't ask?
Mr. REDLICH. What was the purpose of her visit?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe--let's see, she may have brought something that day, too. I don't recall whether she did or not. I know right after that, the Civil Liberties Union got into it. Well, Mark Lane, was first.
Mr. REDLICH. You say right after that Mark Lane got into it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you elaborate on that?
Mr. MARTIN. Mark Lane came to Dallas, and contacted John Thorne and I. We met him at the Statler and talked to him at lunch, and he expressed a desire to talk to Marina Oswald so that he could represent her husband, defend her husband in a hearing, and we told him that we would relay that information to her. So we did, and she said that she didn't want to have any representation. She didn't want anymore--
Mr. REDLICH. You mean she didn't want any representation for Lee Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she didn't want any more to do about it.
Representative FORD. Can you recall the date of this visit by Mr. Lane?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Was it in December or January?
Mr. MARTIN. It was in January, I believe.
Mr. REDLICH. And you transmitted Mr. Lane's message to Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and she said that she didn't want any representation for Lee.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell her this in English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and explained it to her, and at that time she could understand.
Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did Marina ever meet Mr. Lane?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no.
Mr. REDLICH. And you also related the Ruth Paine, second Ruth Paine, visit to your home to something which you referred to as the American Civil Liberties Union business.
Mr. MARTIN. It was right after--these incidents happened rather closely. The letter from the Civil Liberties Union--well, first we received a telephone call from the Civil Liberties Union wanting to see Marina Oswald.
Representative FORD. Telephone call from Dallas or New York, or what?
Mr. MARTIN. From Richardson, the same person who wrote the letter which you have there. Do you have that?
Mr. REDLICH. We do have. We are inventorying many of these documents of which the American Civil Liberties letter is one and we will introduce it at an appropriate time.
Mr. MARTIN. Richardson is a suburb of Dallas.

13

This gentleman called, what was his name?
Mr. LEECH. I can't remember it.
Mr. REDLICH. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name Olds?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Greg Olds. He called on the phone and wanted to see Marina Oswald, wanted to. make sure she was being properly represented, that she knew her rights, and so on and so forth. John Thorne talked to him, and told him that he represented Marina Oswald, and that he was definitely sure that all her rights were being observed. Then I think there was another phone call from them still wanting to see Marina Oswald, and I talked to Marina and she said well, she would talk to him. So they arranged a meeting with a third party, I can't remember his name, who was a minister of some kind, and then Marina changed her mind and said no, she didn't want to go at all, she didn't want to talk to any of them. So then they wrote the letter. They wrote a letter to her in Russian and sent one to me in English, one to John Thorne in English, and I believe one to the Secret Service and one to the FBI.
Mr. LEECH. Do you want to mention about their press releases at this time?
Mr. MARTIN. There were a number of press releases at that time also that she was being held incognito and not able to---- M. REDLICH. You mean incognito or incommunicado?
Mr. MARTIN. Incommunicado.
Representative FORD. Press releases by whom?
Mr. MARTIN. The Civil Liberties Union, and so they sent this letter to her and she answered it with a two-page letter in Russian.
Representative FORD. In Russian?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have a copy of that two-page letter?
Mr. MARTIN. No. he wrote it, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it and I mailed it. I didn't open it or look in it in any way. And that seemed to be the end of it, but they still persisted they wanted to see her.
Mr. REDLICH. And the reason Marina did not see them was entirely her own volition?
Mr. MARTIN. Her own.
Mr. DULLES. She never talked to you about what was in the letter?
Mr. MARTIN. No, she said she just told them she didn't want to see them.
Mr. DULLES. In two pages?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; This was quoted, a portion of the letter was quoted, in the Worker.
Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get, if possible, a copy of the original of that letter.
Mr. MARTIN. You probably can get it from Greg Olds.
Mr. DULLES. Would you make a note of that. I think we should do that. That was dated sometime in the middle of January?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe so. The letter you have--she wadded the letter up that. was written to her in Russian and threw it away, and I got it back out, and asked her to go ahead and write them a letter so it would quiet them. So she said she would and she wrote a letter, I think, that night, so it would be within a couple of days of the date of that letter, the English copy of which you have.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, if you would like, we could take a 3- or 4-minute recess and I could get the American Civil Liberties Union letter to Marina Oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of clarity in the record.
Mr. DULLES. Good. It is a good time for a breather.
(Short recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. You are familiar with, Mr. Dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing up to date. You go right ahead and preside, if you will.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich will you go right ahead with your questions?

14

Mr. REDLICH. I believe Congressman Ford, you said you wanted to ask your questions prior to your leaving.
Representative FORD. Do you wish to have that letter entered as an exhibit at this point before I ask several questions?
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before this Commission a letter which I now mark Commission Exhibit No. 331 on the Dallas Civil Liberties Union stationery, addressed to Mr. John Thorne, James Martin, Mr. Sorrels, Secret Service, Mrs. Lee H. Oswald, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I ask that it be introduced in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No.
Mr. DULLES. It will be introduced.
(The letter referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 331 and received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chief Justice, we have introduced that because just prior to the recess we were discussing it and Congressman Ford indicated he had to leave I believe and I wanted to ask some questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question on this letter for clarification? It is my understanding it is your belief that Mrs. Oswald received a copy of this letter in Russian?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in Russian. Now whether it was an exact copy, I don't know.
Mr. DULLES. About the length of this letter as far as you could tell?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. At about the same time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was the same day.
Mr. DULLES. That was the letter she crumpled up and put in the wastepaper basket?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. But you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you not say?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir, and asked her to answer it.
Mr. DULLES. Where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper basket?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know.
Mr. DULLES. Maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket?
Mr. MARTIN. It may have been, yes.
Representative FORD. I believe that was the letter that Mr. Redlich indicated he would get a copy from the Dallas Chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. MARTIN. Her answer is what he wanted to get.
Mr. REDLICH. I think Congressman Ford is right. We might be able to get both a copy of the letter and their answer.
Mr. DULLES. Their statement in this letter is the English of the Russian translation which they sent to her. I think it would be adequate, wouldn't it?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. It seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes.
Mr. REDLICH. We will contact the Dallas Division on that.
Representative FORD. Marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere, that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that Lee was guilty of the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Was that her attitude when you first met her?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, when I first met her, we didn't converse very well at all. There was lack of communication because of the language barrier, and I didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of December, although she was speaking fairly good English by the 15th of December.

15

Representative FORD. When you first discussed it with her, what was her attitude?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said she thought he was crazy.
Representative FORD. But did she indicate when you first discussed the question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude?
Mr. MARTIN. She thought he was guilty.
Representative FORD. The first time you discussed the matter?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did she indicate why?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling.
Representative FORD. At that point had she--
Mr. MARTIN. A woman's feeling.
Representative FORD. At that point had she been given or shown the evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the Federal Government?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I assume she had through the FBI. The FBI were showing her pictures and numerous things. I was not in on any of the questioning at all.
Mr. DULLES. Had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as you know at that period?
Mr. MARTIN. Some of them, yes.
Mr. DULLES. Newspapers I mean.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. From that first conversation you had with her about this matter, the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald, she has never changed her mind?
Mr. MARTIN. No, and I have never heard her say anything other than he was guilty.
Representative FORD. Did you ever discuss with Marina the conversation she had with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas police station the day he was apprehended or the day following. Or at any time prior to his death?
Mr. MARTIN. The only time she said anything about it was that he told her not to worry and to make sure and get the get June a pair of shoes.
Representative FORD. She told you that is what he said to her?
Mr. MARTIN. That is what he said, yes.
Representative FORD. There was nothing extraordinary that she told you about the conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Other than what you have indicated?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. He said not to worry. Everything would be all right.
Representative FORD. Did you ever ask her about this conversation that she had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was at the Dallas police station?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. As her manager, as the manager of Marina, did you have anything to do with the change of her appearance? Many people have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. She had a different hair-do, and so forth. Did you have anything to do with that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. What was the purpose of that?
Mr. MARTIN. Just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be recognized when she went out.
Representative FORD. Did she agree to this, was she willing to do it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She didn't like her haircut particularly.
Representative FORD. She liked the previous way it was?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. How about the change in clothes, the type that she wore?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, that was for the better.
Representative FORD. Did she like it?
Mr. MARTIN. She liked the clothes, yes.
Representative FORD. That is all.
Mr. MARTIN. She tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't stand makeup.
Mr. REDLICH. We previously asked you, Mr. Martin, about various people

16

that Marina Oswald knew in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and you have indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent to which they had contacted Marina Oswald during the time she was in your home. Are there any other friends of Marina Oswald's rather than those I have asked you about that you--who attempted to contact her while she was living at your home?
Mr. MARTIN. Ilya, I believe it is Mamatav or Mamantov--he is of the Dallas Police Department and he has asked of her how she is.
Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other than in an official capacity?
(At this point, Congressman Ford left the hearing room.)
Mr. MARTIN. Well, one time when we went to Sears, Sears Roebuck in Dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left.
Mr. REDLICH. There were no other friends of hers that you know about who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home? Other than those we have already discussed on the record? If I mentioned the name of Mr. or Mrs. Teofil Meller--the first name is Teofil, the last name is Meller.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, there was someone that called the office one day and had a rather odd name, was that Meller, and said that Marina wanted to talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. She wouldn't leave the number or anything like that. I am not sure whether that was Meller.
(Discussion off the record.)
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. MARTIN. There was no telephone number involved.
Mr. REDLICH. You have discussed at length the attempt of Ruth Paine to see Mrs. Oswald. Did Mike Paine ever attempt to see Mrs. Oswald while she was living at your home?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Michael Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. No. When we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he stood back--I don't believe he said anything at all. It was a very odd situation. He was helping us move things but he didn't say anything.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss Michael Paine with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Only Ruth Paine but not Michael Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said they were separated.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, did Marina ever discuss with you her husband's desire to go to Cuba?
Mr. MARTIN. She said that he had wanted to go to Cuba because he wanted--because he wasn't happy in Russia and he wasn't happy in the United States and then she said he wouldn't be happy in Cuba either.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to Cuba?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Not at all.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was making to get to and live in Cuba?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Ford has asked you about the conversations which Marina had with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station on November 23 and you have replied. I would like to ask you about any--your knowledge about any conversation which Robert Oswald had with Lee Oswald while he was in the custody of the Dallas Police prior to his death?
Mr. MARTIN. I have no knowledge at all of that.
Mr. REDLICH. You have never had any conversations with Robert Oswald concerning his conversations with Lee Oswald.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the custody of the Dallas police?

17

Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you had any conversations at all with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think any direct conversation, I mean between she and I. I was present at times out there at the Inn when she was talking to this person or that person. But I don't believe I have had any direct conversation with her at all.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Marguerite Oswald ever discuss with you an incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown to her by agents of the FBI on November 23, 1963.
Mr. MARTIN. No, I have heard that through news media but that is the only place I heard it.
Mr. REDLICH. You have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss that incident with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you her mother-in-law's allegations that Lee Oswald was acting as an agent of the United States Government?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She mentioned only one incident where the FBI came to their house when they were in Oak Cliff, and they took him down to the car, I believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and Marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and I think that is the only reference she has made to anything like that.
Mr. REDLICH. She has never discussed with you the specific claims of Marguerite Oswald in that respect?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. In the course of your conversations with Marina Oswald or in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on Mrs. Oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with Mrs. Oswald the events of November 21 and the morning of November 22?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you relate those conversations to us?
Mr. MARTIN. He came home Thursday night, which was unusual.
Mr. REDLICH. Just so the record is clear, I hope you are relating to us now what Marina Oswald has related to you and not what you have read in any publication.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. All right.
Mr. MARTIN. And, let's see, this was sometime in December that she was telling me this--no, I remember when it was, when she was moving from the Inn to my home.
Mr. REDLICH. By the Inn you mean--
Mr. MARTIN. The Inn of the Six Flags. She was in the back seat and Leon Gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that he had come home Thursday night and that--
Mr. DULLES. In Russian?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. This was a conversation in Russian?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Lee translated it for me, Gopadze translated it.
Mr. DULLES. Afterwards or as it took place.
Mr. MARTIN. As it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, I think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on the dresser, which was strange. Now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that I have heard her say. Now, I didn't actually hear her say that.
Mr. REDLICH. You have had no other conversations with her with regard to the period of November 21 and the morning of November 22?
Mr. MARTIN. No.

18

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of the story which Marina Oswald prepared in Russian and which she has sent to this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you state the extent of your knowledge?
Mr. MARTIN. I knew it was written, and written by her, and that is about the extent of it.
Mr. REDLICH. Was it ever translated for you?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it.
Mr. REDLICH. Are there any parts of that story which you now believe to be inaccurate?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't have the whole thing translated, but I think everything that is translated, I have no reason to doubt.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you, assist Marina Oswald in the preparation for her television appearance in January on CBS television?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of that interview which you now believe to be inaccurate in any respect?
Mr. MARTIN. No. We set a format for CBS to use, specific questions, and Marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. Those were impromptu. But we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she answered them, and the second time she did it on camera.
Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge and recollection those answers were accurate?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I can't remember them. But none of them struck me as being--
Mr. REDLICH. Apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative prepared by or for Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Prepared by or for?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. You mean other than newspaper articles?
Mr. REDLICH. Other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this morning and this afternoon.
Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you have anything to do with the recent story in Life magazine?
Mr. MARTIN. No, we had nothing on that other than the picture. Time magazine, she was interviewed for Time magazine.
Mr. REDLICH. When was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Saturday--Friday--she was here in Washington.
Mr. REDLICH. If I may refresh your recollection, she completed her testimony before this Commission at approximately 5:30 on Thursday, February 6.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was Friday. We held a press conference on Friday afternoon, and I think it was Friday night then.
Mr. REDLICH. It would be sometime after the completion of her testimony is that correct?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of that interview?
Mr. MARTIN. It must have been Thursday night. It was Thursday night because Secret Service was still with her.
Mr. REDLICH. You believe this interview took place on Thursday night?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. That would be February 6?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of this interview?
Mr. MARTIN. Part of the time. I left John Thorne and Marina and the Time reporter at the table. June was restless, and I was walking her around the restaurant.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you read the interview?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

19

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of it which you now believe to be inaccurate, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I would have to re-read it to make it definite, make a definite statement on it.
Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of conversations which you had during the course of the testimony of Marina Oswald before this Commission and on the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time, do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony which she presented before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think primarily she is truthful, and I think that under oath she would tell the truth.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you still Mrs. Oswald's business representative?
Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract, yes. According to my contract with her.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you received any communication from her which raises questions as to whether you are still her business representative?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Are we really concerned with that?
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I intend to ask the witness why he was discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of Mrs. Oswald before this Commission.
The CHAIRMAN. You can ask him if it has anything to do with her testimony. We are not interested in her business affairs.
Mr. REDLICH. I merely wanted to establish the fact of--
The CHAIRMAN. This thing can go on interminably with all this minutia and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever his business relations are with Mrs. Oswald, it seems to me is his business and not ours.
Mr. REDLlCH. Did Mrs. Oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship with you relate in any way to her testimony before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no reason given. Mr. REDLICH. Did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us about your association with him?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a very minor association. I had been working in the Statler Hotel in Dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months before I met him, and met him through some of the other people in the hotel.
Mr. DULLES. What year was this?
Mr. MARTIN. About 1955.
Mr. DULLES. I just want to get the general area.
Mr. MARTIN. 1955 or 1956. And as a club manager, I was club manager in Dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all. even on a bilateral communication through the clubs. But it was just a nodding acquaintance, you might say. I knew him by his first name. He knew me by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and I think I have been in his place twice.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the approximate dates of those visits?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, once in 1962. I had some gentlemen from New Orleans with me. They were visiting Dallas on business at the Inn of the Six Flags, and they wanted to see the Carousel.
Mr. DULLES. That is what you mean by his place?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. So I called Jack Ruby and asked if it would be all right if I brought them down. We stayed approximately an hour and a half. The other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, I had--I was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. The club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before opening hours.
Mr. REDLICH. Those are the only times you have been in Jack Ruby's business establishment?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

20

Mr. REDLICH. Do you consider yourself a friend of his?
Mr. MARTIN. No. An acquaintance.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you gone out socially?
Mr. MARTIN. No. He came out to the Inn one time with some little gimmick. It is called a Detwist Board. It is quite a piece of plywood about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in bail bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the Six Flags over Texas Amusement Park, and I told him. Now, whether he went over there or not, I don't know.
Mr. REDLICH. I understand that you have had a conversation with an aid of General Walker concerning the General Walker incident. Would you tell the Commission about that?
Mr. MARTIN. They contacted us--
Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"?
Mr. MARTIN. General Walker's aide, Mr. Moore or Morse, a tall thin gentleman, about 55 or 60, and wanted actually an interview with Marina which we didn't think was necessary. They came out to John Thorne's office and we sat and talked. They were of the opinion--what they were trying to do was find out who else was involved--this was right after the announcement was made in the paper about Lee Oswald shooting at Walker. They were trying to find out who else was involved because General Walker is still in fear of his life.
Mr. DULLES. This was some time before the 22d.
Mr. MARTIN. No, it was after.
Mr. DULLES. After November 22?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. This was after the announcement was made in the paper that--
Mr. DULLES. Oh yes.
Mr. MARTIN. That Lee Oswald had attacked him.
Mr. DULLES. The actual attack was in April. This was after the newspaper announcement.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. After the newspaper announcements that Lee had tried to kill him which was after the assassination?
Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. And they just wanted verification actually that or to try to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told them that there was just one person involved.
Mr. REDLICH. At the time did you ask Marina about this?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And this is what she told you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The persons involved in the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said that Lee did it alone without any help. There was no one with him.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I have at this time no further questions other than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you have forwarded to this Commission. As we indicated in the brief recess earlier, Mr. Dulles is able to be here at 9 o'clock this evening, and I would envisage then a very brief session at which time your testimony would be completed.
Mr. MARTIN. All right.
Mr. REDLICH. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of Mr. Martin at this time?
The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to ask your client any questions?
Mr. LEECH. No. I am not going to make that mistake.
(Laughter.)
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. DULLES. I have no questions. I will reserve them for tonight. I don't think I have any further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to ask.

21

Mr. Rankin, are you through for the day?
Mr. RANKIN. Until 9 o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN. Well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until 9 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 9:20 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. The Committee will come to order. Will you continue with the testimony?
Mr. REDLICH. Thank you, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. Martin, at our last session I asked you whether you knew Jack Ruby, and you replied that you did. You indicated the brief contact that you have had with him and the two times, I believe, that you have been to his business establishment?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Apart from your own personal contact with Jack Ruby, do you have any other information about him and his activities which you would like to present before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No, nothing that I definitely know about him. It is just he is a city character. He is very friendly to everyone.
Mr. REDLICH. Please understand I am not asking you for rumors or that type of thing.
Mr. MARTIN. No, I know. Well, just what I know of him, he seems very friendly to everyone, and he is always around. You are liable to see him anywhere.
Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever been to the motel that you have?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I mentioned that.
Mr. REDLICH. Oh, yes.
Mr. MARTIN. He brought that twist board out there one time.
Mr. REDLICH. Never been there as a guest?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. I hand you a copy of an invoice for a Revere recorder and a 1,200-foot reel of recording tape, and ask you if you have ever seen this?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That is a tape recorder that I rented and recorded the--
Mr. REDLICH. I will ask you about it shortly. I would just like to know if you are familiar with it.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I am marking this as Commission Exhibit No. 332, and ask that it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted.
(The tape recorder and tape invoice referred to were marked Commission's Exhibit No. 332 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 332, and ask you to tell the Commission the conditions under which this invoice arose?
Mr. MARTIN. We had Marina's manuscript interpreted by Ilya Mamantov, and this was part Of it. He was only able to interpret about half of it.
Mr. REDLICH. He interpreted it and put it on tape?
Mr. MARTIN. And we recorded that on tape as he interpreted it.
Mr. DULLES. How do you mean interpreted?
Mr. MARTIN. He read it in English?
Mr. DULLES. Oh, I see, translated it.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. From Russian into English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

22

Mr. REDLICH. When I asked you this afternoon about your knowledge as to the accuracy of that story, I take it your reply was based upon this translation?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And this only encompasses about half of the entire story, is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. It is more than half, it is about 15 pages, I guess.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she consult with you at all in the preparation of that story?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. And there is nothing on this tape other than the English translation of that Russian story?
Mr. MARTIN. That is true.
Mr. DULLES. Do we have that translation as well as the copy of the original?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have the original in Russian and then it was translated by Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service.
Mr. MARTIN. Actually our translation is very poor. He was not able to translate properly into English a lot of the phrases.
Mr. DULLES. Who is "he," Ilia? Isn't that Ilya, by the way?
Mr. MARTIN. I am not sure.
Mr. DULLES. That is generally the Russian, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. That is right.
Mr. MARTIN. It might be.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. But he is professor at SMU. He has a list of titles that long. He is very well thought of. I think he works for Sun Oil Company, and is a well-respected individual His wife and his mother, I believe, teach Russian also. I think his mother taught Mrs. Paine a good deal of her Russian.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to show you Commission Exhibit No. 325 which was introduced earlier today. Mr. Leech, I believe you have a photostat of this. If you could hand it to me during the course of this questioning. I would appreciate it.
Mr. LEECH. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Thank you. Could you tell the Commission what this document purports to state, and then I will ask you about individual items.
Mr. MARTIN. These are contracts that we have made both in writing and verbally for Marina Oswald's right, her story rights.
Mr. REDLICH. And the first item appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is a contract with Texitalia Films.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe the terms and conditions of that contract?
Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films is planning a 60-minute technicolor documentary to start. They will pay $75,000 for World-Wide movie and the TV rights.
Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, is this a documentary of Marina's life?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Any movie or television appearances Marina would be paid $7,500 plus expenses for each appearance. Then for each personal appearance, for instance, the film opens in St. Louis on such and such a date and they would like for her to be there to make a personal appearance for the showing, the opening of the film, she would receive $1,500 plus expenses for each public appearance of that nature.
Mr. REDLICH. And this contract according to this exhibit was signed on February 11, 1964?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. LEECH. By her?
Mr. MARTIN. No, by me acting for her.
Mr. REDLICH. By you acting on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in accordance with my contract with her.
Mr. REDLICH. The second item appearing here is a contract with Life magazine. Would you tell the Commission about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine purchased the rights, North American rights on a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol, primarily for their use on a cover issue.

23

Mr. DULLES. That is what appeared on the recent cover issue, I guess, it was 2 weeks ago.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Now, that $5,000 has been paid. We have the $5,000 in an escrow account.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you actually have in your possession the photograph, a copy of which appeared on the cover of Life magazine?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how this contract was consummated, in view of the fact that Life magazine apparently printed on its cover a photograph which you never possessed?
Mr. MARTIN. They knew the photographs belonged to Marina. They have a common law copyright, and the only way they could legally use the film is to purchase the rights from Marina.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Life magazine indicate to you where they obtained the photograph?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you had conversations with other publications concerning that photograph?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I made the contact with the London Daily Mirror for the purchase of the British Commonwealth rights on that same photograph, and they guaranteed $2,200 plus 50-50 split on what they sold in the Commonwealth. It was restricted to the Commonwealth only. However, the London Daily Mail came out with the photograph prior to the Mirror, and I was informed by Mr. Weggand of the London Daily Express that the Detroit Free Press had sold this photograph to the London Daily Mail for $500.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any idea how the Detroit Free Press obtained this photograph?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I talked to Ken Murray, who I was informed was the attorney for the Detroit Free Press.
Mr. REDLICH. Where did you talk to him?
Mr. MARTIN. At his home in Detroit.
Mr. REDLICH. By phone?
Mr. MARTIN. By telephone. And he stated that the photograph was public property, and not covered under common law copyright. I asked him where he got the photo, and he said he got it at the same place as Life did, through a leak in the Commission. I talked to Life magazine attorney--I can't remember his name. It is a very odd name. It begins with an "S". Now, Murray said that Life had informed him that they had gotten it from a leak through the Commission, and I contacted Life and he denied saying anything of the sort to Murray. However, Murray insisted that that is where he got that and he figured it was public domain.
Mr. REDLICH. At the start of today's testimony when you mentioned the possibility of a leak with regard to this photograph, something that you said prior to the actual start of hearings, Mr. Rankin and I commented on that assertion. Would you tell the Commission what we said?
Mr. MARTIN. That there was definitely not a leak in the Commission, and that you would certainly find out what Murray was talking about.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to an editor of the Detroit Free Press with regard to this photograph?
Mr. MARTIN. I called at night. It was at night, and I asked for the news editor. He was not in, so I talked to a reporter, and he couldn't say anything about it. He referred me to Ken Murray and gave me his home telephone number.
Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 has reference to Stern Magazine. Would you tell the Commission about that, please?
Mr. MARTIN. Stern Magazine we have been working with since the middle of December. They have been quite patient actually. For $12,500 they wanted Marina's memoirs and photographs, available photographs for use in Germany

24

and Italy only. They wanted exclusive use in those two countries. Then they would endeavor to sell these same memoirs and pictures to o~her European countries, limiting it only to European countries, and take a 30 percent commission on any sales that they made, the remaining 70 percent going to Marina.
Mr. REDLICH. Has this contract been signed?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know when it was signed? Can you approximate the date?
Mr. MARTIN. I confirmed it by wire to them. It is in the exhibits.
Mr. REDLICH. We have not introduced--
Mr. MARTIN. You haven't come to that yet.
Mr. REDLICH. We do not intend to introduce the specific documents into the record, just this summary.
Mr. LEECH. Give him an approximate date.
Mr. REDLICH. You say it was confirmed by telegram.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was confirmed by telegram to Spiegelberg.
Mr. LEECH. When?
Mr. MARTIN. In New York. December 16 at 2:45 p.m.
Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 also refers to Stern Magazine, an item of $2,650. Could you comment on that?
Mr. MARTIN. This was a recent development wherein since they could not send an author in to talk to Marina, they purchased seven photographs for a total of $2,650, to take the memoirs later. However, they will not hold off the memoirs forever.
Mr. REDLICH. These seven photographs are photographs of what?
Mr. MARTIN. Of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald together and separate.
Mr. REDLICH. These were photographs which were not turned over to the Dallas police?
Mr. MARTIN. No. They were photographs that we were given prints of by the FBI. The FBI sent prints of these photographs to us.
Mr. REDLICH. Am I correct in assuming that all of the photographs which were in the possession of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald, either in his apartment or in the Paine's apartment, were turned over to the Dallas police? Is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know.
Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And that any photographs which you have and which have been the basis of any contract are copies which were made available to you by some law enforcement authority?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Now, there was a check, there was a $250 cash down payment made on this $2,650. Then a check for $2,400; the check was stopped, payment on the Check was stopped because of a letter written by William McKenzie saying that I had no authority to sign any contracts whatsoever for Marina, and that if they did use anything that I had sold them, litigation would follow immediately. So consequently they stopped payment on the check. I still have the check. It is still attached to the letter that was sent with it.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask who is that check made out to?
Mr. MARTIN. Made out to me.
Mr. DULLES. To you as agent?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Or to you just in your name?
Mr. MARTIN. I think it is just made out to me.
Mr. DULLES. I don't know if it is important,
Mr. LEECH. You go ahead and I'll find it.
Mr. MARTIN. Under the contract all checks were supposed to be made payable to me. Then I would deduct my fee and forward the balance to Marina.
Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 refers to Meredith Press.

25 731-218-O--vol.II---3

Mr. MARTIN. The Meredith Press is a book publisher with their main office in Des Moines, Iowa. I had talked with Mr. Ted Purdy at great length and on numerous occasions by phone. We had negotiated world book rights for Marina Oswald's story. For this Meredith Press would pay a $25,000 advance to her. Then on the first printing would be a 10 percent commission of the retail price of the book. On the second printing would be 12 1/2 percent commission, and on the third and succeeding printings it would be 15 percent commission. Now, of course, the commissions were to be deducted. from the advance.
Mr. REDLICH. And this was to be her life story?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Had you discussed with Marina at all the contents of this book? Had you started making any preparations for writing?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I am not a writer, and wouldn't know the first thing to do about a book. But we had negotiated with one writer, Isaac Don Levine, who Meredith Press felt would be the best writer available for this type of book because of the Russian attachment.
Mr. REDLICH. When you told us this morning of your initial concern over the Nixon shooting incident, did it relate to these various agreements that you have been working on concerning the sale of Marina Oswald's story?
Mr. MARTIN. Did it relate to them?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. How do you mean?
Mr. REDLICH. Were you concerned about the publicity, the effect of the publicity of the Nixon incident on these various agreements which you were negotiating at the time?
Mr. MARTIN. No. As a matter of fact, it would enhance the price of it. For instance, the Post magazine, the Saturday Evening Post, said that they would like to buy American serial rights if there was something in Marina's story that the Commission did not know.
Mr. REDLICH. When did they tell you this?
Mr. MARTIN. Around the first of the year I guess.
Mr. REDLICH. Around the first of the year. Did Marina know about this?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. This is the Saturday Evening Post you are talking about?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I talked to a Mr. Black.
Mr. REDLICH. And the Saturday Evening Post said to you that they would buy the serial rights provided there was some information which would not be known to the Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I told them there was no realm that would apply, and we closed negotiations.
Mr. REDLICH. And you say you didn't relate this fact at all to Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. These negotiations with the Post.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Was there in fact to the best of your knowledge material which she did not in fact relate to this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the Nixon affair.
Mr. REDLICH. And were you aware at the time she completed her testimony here that she had not related this information to the Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Was there any connection between her failure to tell the Commission of the Nixon incident and the negotiations, the temporary negotiations that you had had with the Saturday Evening Post?
Mr. MARTIN. No, none whatsoever. That was closed off at least 30 days before she testified.
Mr. REDLICH. Was there any attempt on your part or anyone acting on Marina Oswald's part that you know of to negotiate the sale of the information concerning the Nixon shooting incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr. REDLICH. When Marina--did Marina ever give you an explanation for why she did not tell the Commission about the Nixon incident?

26

Mr. MARTIN. No. I have never talked to her about that other than the first time that she told me about it. I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it. I didn't discuss it with her.
Mr. REDLICH. And since Marina Oswald's return from Washington after having testified here, you say you have never discussed the Nixon incident with Marina Oswald in any way?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I probably would have had there been sufficient time. Of course, she left my home the following day after she got back from Washington.
Mr. REDLICH. When you say you probably would have, in what way?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, since she didn't mention it to the Commission, I feel the Commission should know about it.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know at this time she had not mentioned it to the Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. I asked John Thorne.
Mr. DULLES. Oh, you asked John Thorne?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. What did John Thorne say?
Mr. MARTIN. Said she had not mentioned it.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask John Thorne why she had not mentioned it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did John Thorne offer any information as to why she had not mentioned?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know whether John Thorne had urged her to mention it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. John Thorne was aware of the Nixon incident prior to Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission, was he not?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Because you had apparently told him about that shortly after you learned about it in January.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald after Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission in February?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. You had not?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I discussed it with him prior to the Commission's testimony or not. I may or I may not have. I don't know. I don't know whether I mentioned it to him or not.
Mr. REDLICH. Coming back to Commission Exhibit No. 325, the next item under London Daily Mirror, am I correct in assuming that this is, that this item refers to the rifle photo which you discussed earlier in your testimony tonight?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is right.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have anything to add with regard to that rifle photo that you have not already told us?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Marina Oswald at any time this rifle photo and the circumstances under which it was taken.
Mr. MARTIN. I asked her at one time why he wanted a photograph taken of that type, and she said she didn't know. He just wanted pictures taken that way.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you when this photograph was taken in relationship to any other incidents such as the General Walker incident or the Richard Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you know where the photograph was taken?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I don't even know if it was in Oak Cliff or not. 1 have an idea that it was in Oak Cliff but I don't know whether I know that or whether I have read it.
Mr. REDLICH. When you say Oak Cliff, some of us don't live in Dallas.
Mr. MARTIN. It is a suburb of Dallas, a section of Dallas.

27

Mr. REDLICH. Are you referring to the area where the Neely Street house was located? To refresh your recollection, Mr. Martin, the Oswalds lived in two places in Dallas. One was on Elsbeth Street and the other on Neely. Are they both in Oak Cliff?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Elsbeth Street is right around the corner from Neely Street, I believe they lived in an apartment on Elsbeth. It was a group of apartments in one building, and on Neely Street, I think, that was similar to a duplex.
Mr. REDLICH. And you are not certain as to where this photograph which was the subject of these negotiations was taken?
Mr. MARTIN. No, except that the Elsbeth address, I believe, was a brick residence, I mean a brick apartment, it is a dark building, and the Neely Street address is a white building. I believe the photo shows a white building.
Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of that you would conclude the photograph was taken at which address?
Mr. MARTIN. At the Neely Street address.
Mr. REDLICH. At the Neely Street address. When you were negotiating with various publications for this photograph, didn't anyone ask you when and where it was taken?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I told them that it was while they were living in Oak Cliff. I didn't say where or when.
Mr. REDLICH. No one asked you.
Mr. MARTIN. And they apparently weren't concerned with the where or when.
Mr. REDLICH. Did they ask you anything about the publication which Lee Oswald had in his hand?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and I told them that it was either the Militant or the Worker. I was not sure which one. I am not even sure whether either one.
Mr. REDLICH. Your copy of the photograph did not indicate clearly which one it was?
Mr. MARTIN. Correct.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you now know which one it was?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Are you sure it is one of the two?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I am not. I assume that it would be one of the two.
Mr. REDLICH. For the record it is the Militant.
Mr. DULLES. It is?
Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything about the circumstances of this photograph. including the rifle, the pistol, the time, the place, anything concerning this photograph that you have not told this Commission about which you have knowledge?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. The last item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is This Week magazine, $1,000. Could you tell us about that. At the conclusion of this list I will ask if there is anything else. We are now at This Week magazine.
Mr. MARTIN. When Marina was here in Washington, she had the press conference, and at the end of the press conference she mentioned, she made a statement "Now I go to church." On the way to the CBS studios we passed a Russian Orthodox Church, and she remarked about it, that she would like to come back and go inside, see what it looked like. Someone in This Week magazine caught that statement, and wanted to write a short article on Marina going to church, and that is what that is.
Mr. REDLICH. What happened? Could you tell us how this article got written?
Mr. MARTIN. It hasn't been written.
Mr. REDLICH. Did the reporter accompany Mrs. Oswald to church?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, no. Actually when the television interview was over, we came back and went to the church, but the church was locked and we didn't get in at all. Now this contact was made after we left Washington. This Week magazine contacted us after, not while we were still here.
Mr. REDLICH. And what was the subject matter of this article specifically supposed to be?

28

Mr. MARTIN. The title of it was supposed to be "I go to church," and it would be an article written on Marina going to church.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, the total figure on the bottom of Commission Exhibit No. 325 is $132,350. This presumably does not include any future royalties, is that correct?
Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you made an estimate as to the total earnings which would accrue as a result of these contractual arrangements?
Mr. MARTIN. It should be approximately $300,000 at a maximum, depending on what American serial rights and British Commonwealth serial rights, Asiatic serial rights would bring.
Mr. REDLICH. You say the maximum of $300,000?
Mr. MARTIN. I think so.
Mr. LEECH. Of those contracts?
Mr. REDLICH. That is what I am asking about are these.
Mr. MARTIN. Of these contracts, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us about any other contractual arrangements that you have made or are negotiating on behalf of Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. There are no others. I will have to refer to things. We had an offer from Australia and also from New Zealand as far as this photograph is concerned. However, it was thrown to the wind by the Detroit Free Press, so they got it from Detroit Free Press, we have been offered--we have not received an offer. The Australian newspaper--
Mr. DULLES. Do you need these details do you think?
Mr. REDLICH. I want to get the total figure, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MARTIN. Associated Newspapers Limited of Australia would like to have Australian rights to a book that Marina would write, and also the London Evening Standard would like to have the British rights, of course, to the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, Mr. Thorne has indicated to this Commission that he estimated that Marina's earnings would approach approximately $500,000. Would you comment on that estimate?
Mr. MARTIN. I think it might be a little high. Of course, if you take into consideration she has $68,000, close to $70,000 in contributions alone, then the advances on this Exhibit No. 325, that is $200,000 right there. I think $500,000 might be just a little bit high.
Mr. REDLICH. The final document I would like to show you is a photostat of a letter which you presented to the Commission today, purporting to be a letter written in Russian together with an English translation. It starts, the English translation starts with the words "As the widow of Lee Oswald." I show you Commission Exhibit No. 333 and ask you if this is a photostat of the letter which you submitted to the Commission this morning.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently so.
Mr. DULLES. Who is that letter to?
Mr. REDLICH. We don't know yet.
Mr. DULLES. You don't know yet?
Mr. REDLICH. I will develop that in the questioning. I mark this Commission Exhibit No. 333, being a Russian letter and what purports to be its English translation and ask that it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Can you identify that any further than just a Russian letter?
Mr. REDLICH. On the top appears a date, and the day of the month is the 20th. I am unable to tell what month it is.
Mr. MARTIN. But the year is 1964, and the words "Dallas, Texas" then appear under the date.
Mr. DULLES. That helps identify it.
Mr. REDLICH. I ask that it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No objection.
Mr. DULLES. It is admitted.
(The photostats of a Russian letter with an English translation were marked Commission Exhibit No. 333 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, with your permission I would just summarize the

29

contents of this letter, and if I have summarized it inaccurately, just say so. This letter requests that the death penalty not be applied to Jack Ruby, the person who has been charged with the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. Is that inaccurate?
Mr. MARTIN. No; that is correct.
Mr. REDLICH. That is a correct summary of the contents of the letter?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall to whom that letter was written?
Mr. MARTIN. She originally wrote the letter to Melvin Belli.
Mr. REDLICH. By "she" you mean Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Marina. I advised her against--
Mr. REDLICH. Melvin Belli?
Mr. MARTIN. Is the attorney for Jack Ruby. I advised her against such an action, because of the possibility of the letter itself in translating from Russian to English being misinterpreted and used in a manner that might be derogatory to Marina Oswald. I suggested that she send this letter to Henry Wade who would be the prosecutor in the case. Now whether she changed the salutation on the letter I don't know. I can't read Russian. And the salutation was not translated in the translation. The translation was made by Katya Ford.
Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge has this letter ever been sent to anyone?
Mr. MARTIN. No sir, it hasn't.
Mr. DULLES. You say it has not been?
Mr. MARTIN. It has not been.
Mr. DULLES. That is your belief or you have knowledge that it has not been?
Mr. MARTIN. I have the original. Now if a letter has been sent, it would be a different letter.
Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of your knowledge of Marina Oswald's handwriting, would you tell the Commission whether you believe that this letter is in her handwriting?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is. I also observed her writing the letter.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Marina Oswald discussed this letter when she appeared before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe you mentioned it sometime today.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware of it prior to your coming here?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know why it has not been sent?
Mr. MARTIN. She decided that it was best not to be sent unless she actually thought that Ruby was going to get the death penalty. Actually a letter like that should go to the Governor of the State.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, do you have any additional information concerning the assassination of President Kennedy, Marina Oswald, or the assassination of her husband Lee Harvey Oswald which you would like to present before this Commission at this time?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think so. Nothing.
Mr. REDLICH. If it would be helpful for the work of this Commission for you to return to Washington and appear again before this Commission, would you be willing to do so?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of this witness, unless Mr. Rankin does or you do.
Mr. DULLES. I would just like to ask a question about this letter I am just glancing over. Where did this letter paper come from? Is that some personal paper with a tree on it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I bought that.
Mr. DULLES. You bought it for her?
Mr. MARTIN. At a drug store, yes, sir, at a drug store in Arlington.
Mr. DULLES. Is this another draft or is this just a copy?
Mr. MARTIN. This is the original of the copy.
Mr. REDLICH. We have photographed what is now Commission Exhibit No. 333 and we are keeping the photostat. Mr. Martin, you will recall that at the start of today's proceedings Chief Justice Warren read into the record a copy

30

of the letter which you received requesting certain notes, records, documents in connection with today's hearing. Have you made available to the Commission all of the material which was requested in that letter?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I went through everything I had at home, and could find nothing else.
Mr. REDLICH. If you should find anything else which you inadvertently failed to bring before this Commission, will you mail it to us for examination and we will return it to you.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there is a Worker that I have.
Mr. REDLICH. You mean by Worker the Daily Worker?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I think they dropped the "Daily."
Mr. DULLES. They are no longer daily.
Mr. MARTIN. It is called the Worker now. It has quite a lengthy article about Marina in it, and I will send that to you.
Mr. REDLICH. And you will send anything that you may come across which you may have inadvertently failed to produce before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. REDLICH. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. There were some questions that Senator Cooper had suggested. I don't know, have you looked those over? Have they been covered?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Those have been covered.
Mr. DULLES. All been covered?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Did Marina ever express to you her opinion as to the guilt or innocence of her husband in connection with the assassination of the President?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. What did she say?
Mr. MARTIN. She believes he was guilty. She believes he did it, and the first time she said it I questioned her as to why she thought he did it, and she said she just felt it. It was a woman's intuition. She didn't know the word intuition at that time. I had to look it up in the Russian-English Dictionary.
Mr. DULLES. Did she indicate any view as to whether he did it alone or had an accomplice or accomplices?
Mr. MARTIN. She remarked about the Walker incident, that that was definitely done alone, and that he always was alone. He never did anything with anyone else. I don't recall that she mentioned that specifically in the case of the assassination of the President But she had made that remark before or during the interim about Walker.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever at any time express to you any interest in returning to the Soviet Union or her desire to stay in the United States?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has always said that she wanted to stay in the United Sates. One time she said that she thought she would go back to Russia, and I asked her why and she said, well, she was just joking.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever refer to you any letters she wrote to the Soviet Embassy with regard to a desire to return?
Mr. MARTIN. No. There was only one incident that she told me about was a letter to a friend in Russia.
Mr. DULLES. You mentioned that I think.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The one that she didn't put enough stamps on, enough postage on.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it came back "insufficient postage."
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever mention to you any names of any friends or associates of her husband that had not been discussed here at one time or another in this testimony, including the list of names that was read out to you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know any other friends that Marina has other than those that have been discussed in this testimony?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I was trying to think a while ago about that, and I can't think of anyone else.
Mr. DULLES. That is all I have.

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Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Leech, would you like to ask Mr. Martin any questions at this time?
Mr. LEECH. Not a word.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rhyne? Mr. Rankin, have you any further questions?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I merely wish to thank him for appearing voluntarily.
Mr. DULLES. I do thank you for coming and responding so fully to our questions.
Mr. MARTIN. Anything I can do.
Mr. DULLES. And if anything occurs to you or to your counsel as sometime happens later, we will be very glad if you or your counsel will bring it to our attention.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I certainly will.
Mr. REDLICH. May I before we adjourn ask another question?
Mr. DULLES. Certainly.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald the question of the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I was in contact with Marguerite Oswald was at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., and I don't believe I really discussed anything with her. I was more on the sidelines and didn't enter into any discussions with her at all.
Mr. REDLICH. And have you discussed with Robert Oswald the question of the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Let's see, on one occasion the article by Mark Lane, I think it was in the National Observer, was printed in the National Observer, and I called Robert's attention to that. I believe he cited 15 points where he believed that Lee Oswald was innocent, and I remarked to Robert that in nearly 100 per-cent of those points they were just completely out of line. The brief I believe was taken from newspaper accounts, from various newspaper accounts of the assassination, and a number of them contradicted each other.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Robert Oswald comment on this?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. For the record I believe the publication you are referring to is the National Guardian.
Mr. MARTIN. The National Guardian, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Is that your recollection now?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, National Guardian.
Mr. REDLICH. And Robert Oswald had no comment on this?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. We have no further questions.
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will stand adjourned, subject to call.
(Whereupon, at 10:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)