TESTIMONY OF GEORGE WILLIAM FEHRENBACH

The testimony of George William Fehrenbach was taken at 9:30 a.m., on July 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Our normal procedure in these hearings is for me, for the examiner, to identify himself and explain to you the nature of the proceeding we are

289

going through and then to give you a chance to ask any questions before I actually swear you in.
My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
This Commission was established pursuant to an Executive order signed by President Johnson in late November of last year, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.
The Commission has been directed by virtue of those official acts to investigate into and to evaluate the facts and report back to President Johnson upon the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
The Commission has been authorized to promulgate a set of rules and regulations and which I believe were mailed to you.
Under the rules and regulations of the Commission I have been given the authority to take your deposition here today.
Our purpose in calling you in particular, Mr. Fehrenbach, is to inquire into what you may know about Jack Ruby, but also I might say, generally to obtain any information that you would have pertaining to the death of Lee Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy.
I believe you received a letter from us?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us when you actually received that letter?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Sunday morning. The first letter. I had talked to you on the telephone, and then you told me that you wanted me here Wednesday. So by my being in business for myself I had to work all night Saturday night, and I was still there, I think it was around 9 o'clock Sunday morning the post office called and, of course, they couldn't deliver the letter to me because the building where I worked was locked, so I went to the post office and got it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask you is that under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have notice 3 days in advance of your appearance before the Commission, and I would ask you if you had not received that 3-day notice whether you had, whether you were willing to waive the notice requirements to go ahead with the deposition, but I see from what you said that you did receive it 3 days in advance so we are within the rules.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask before I administer the oath to you and ask you to answer questions?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you will then raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. George William Fehrenbach.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now, Mr. Fehrenbach?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. In Ashland, Oreg.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. March 8, 1926.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Muncie, Ind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lived in Muncie until I was 23 or 24, I believe. I could be wrong now. This is going back so far here. It would have been later than that. About 24 or 25.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you place that in terms of a particular year?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It would be around 1952.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you--
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I left there and went to Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Jacksonville?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I Was in Jacksonville, Fla., for about 6 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go from Jacksonville?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. To, I went back to Muncie, Ind., was going to stay there for

290

a couple of weeks and visit and then we were going to move on to Grants Pass, Oreg., but we ended up staying there about a year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first went to Oregon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. We went to Oregon, I left for Oregon in March, I believe, it was, of 1959 or 1960, I couldn't say for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you arrived in Oregon in March of 1959 or 1960?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the year 1959 or 1960?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was a bad year because I was in Muncie and then my mother-in-law passed away and we was there, I stayed there approximately 8 to 9 months, and there was nothing to do there. I couldn't go back in the jewelry work because there was already a jeweler there and he was pretty well established.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Don't you remember how many years you were working in Oregon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Bob Buckmaster for 2 years, and the Bates Plywood for 2 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. Let's go back. Are you now self-employed, is that correct?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you run a jewelry store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I have a jewelry shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have a jewelry shop, what is the name of the town in Oregon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Medford, Oreg., is where I have the shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; and you live in what town?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Ashland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been operating this shop in Medford, Oreg.?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I bought this shop the first of March of last year; 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, prior to March of 1963, what did you do immediately prior to March of 1963?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was off. I wasn't working at all for about, roughly I would say around a year and 9 months due to an injury.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of an injury was that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, my first injury was with Bates Plywood. I had a ladder slide out from underneath me and I just barely got to the place where I was getting around again and I was ready to go back to work again and I was bear hunting and I shot myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you on the ladder injury accident what sort of injury did you sustain?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I shot myself in the left foot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When the ladder slipped out from under you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The injury there was to the right knee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So, that would have taken you back to sometime in 1962, is that right? You say you were out for 9 months or a year?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Prior to this accident, how long had you actually worked for, was it Bates and Co.?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Bates Plywood. Let's see, I had been with Bates, I went to work for them March 8, 1960.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, immediately before that where were you employed?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was employed with Buckmaster's Jewelers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you employed there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Buckmaster, I believe it was for 1 year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that would have been early 1959 that you went to Oregon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I went to work for him, I believe it was in March of 1959.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, maybe if we can proceed going backward like this we can reconstruct this a little better. What did you do immediately before you went to work for Buckmaster?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was driving a taxicab in Muncie, Ind.

291

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you done that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I worked for them for about 6 months. It was the Checker Cab Co. of Muncie, Ind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave your employment as a taxi driver and go directly to Oregon or was there a period of unemployment?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I went directly to Oregon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Buckmaster, had you had some connection?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had a sister living in Glendale and she had said something to Bob Buckmaster that her brother was a jeweler and I had corresponded on two or three occasions with Bob Buckmaster and he wrote to me and said he would like for me to come to work for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time you were a taxi driver in Muncie, what did you do?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was in business in Jacksonville, Fla., for approximately--I was in business for myself but there again I don't remember--it seems like it was only I year because I only had books for 1 year I believe it was or possibly 2, but I think I only had the income tax record for the business there for I year, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's try to make some computations here then. You went to Oregon in about March of 1959.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For the 6 months previous to that you were in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right, 6 to 9 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which would take you back to the summer perhaps of 1958.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the year before that was it a year or 2 years?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was either a year or 2 years, I can't remember, that is when I was in business for myself in Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At least back until the summer of 1957?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in Jacksonville, and in business for yourself. Now, how long had you been in Jacksonville before you---
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That I can tell you. I was with Underwood Jewelers for 2 years previous to when I quit and went into business for myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, that would take you hack to mid-1955.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Duvall Jewelers previous to Underwood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That takes you back to mid-1953.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Then I went directly from Muncie, Ind., to Duvall Jewelers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way we can establish more clearly that it was 1 year or 2 years that you were self- employed in Jacksonville?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Yes. Now, I started in my own business in Jacksonville, Fla., in October, this I remember, after I immediately left Underwood. I had two Christmases there, so it would have been roughly a year and 7 months because we left Jacksonville, Fla. after I closed my business up, we left Jacksonville, Fla., then and came to Muncie on our way to Grants Pass and then when my mother-in-law passed away why we stayed over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So we might add another 7 months and this would mean that you left Muncie in early 1953 or late 1952?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I believe we will find it was around 1952 when I went there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The reason why I can come to this conclusion, I was called back into the service and I was in Green Cove Springs, Fla., that was in 1950 and 1951, and then I was discharged, I went back to Muncie, I went back to work for Borg Warner Corp., for a year and I stayed there approximately I believe about 8 to 9 months before we left for Jacksonvilie, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What branch of the service were you in?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Navy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been in a Reserve unit, you said you were called back in.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So were you in military service during the Second World War?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you in the service?

292

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was from June of 1944 until June of 1946, 2 years, 2 years and 1 week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. June of 1946 you got out?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you a high school graduate?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have taken some work after you actually left school?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I took the equivalance test. After I was injured I didn't know what I was going to do and I was going to go back to college and I had to take the equivalence test and pass that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which injury are you now talking about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was after the last injury, I went and shot myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hunting. How far did you go with your formal education before you first left school?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I quit school when I was in the 10th grade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What year would that have been?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That would have been in 1941.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would have graduated in 1944. I left school when I was in the 10th grade in order to. go to work for Sam Jaffe. It would have been in 1942.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 1942. How old were you in 1942?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was 16.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you begin working for Mr. Jaffe in 1942?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was in the summertime but I could not put the exact date on it or the exact month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So I take it you completed your term of school in June of 1942 and then during the summer you stared to work for Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you began work for him did you work for him on a fulltime basis?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your job?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was a jeweler apprentice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that involve?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was learning to repair jewelry and diamond setting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a member of a union in connection with tint?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any sort of formal apprenticeship training program?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There wasn't at that time. Now, I stayed with Mr. Jaffe until 1944 when I went into the service, and then when I was discharged in 1946 I came back, I went back to Mr. Jaffe, went back to work for him. I was there, I think a period of just a few months and then he got set up on this here training program by the Government for training veterans, and I believe I was with him for about 2 years after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you, in 1942, happen to get this job with Mr. Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was a friend of mine, a Jimmie Tricker who was working for him, and-Jimmie's eyes were very bad, he couldn't see to do the work, and so Sam had asked him if he knew of another young boy that would be interested in learning this work. So Jimmie told him about me and I went to him, and it worked out and I stayed with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jimmie Tricker the same age as you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was the same age as I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had he worked for Mr. Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Jimmie had only been there about a week or so until he found out that he couldn't see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from 1942 to 1944, did Mr. Jaffe have any other employees beside you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not at that time, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So from 1942 to 1944 you were the only employee of Sam Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was his Jewelry store located?

293

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The jewelry store or his jewelry shop, he didn't have a store, he had a jewelry shop at that time, was located on Walnut Street between Charles and Jackson and that is as close as I can come to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How large a building was it in?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was in a two-, three-story building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What floor was his shop on?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was on the second floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a walk-in trade or how did he operate?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I don't believe I think he had a few friends that would come up, but his friends was a business similar to mine, it was strictly wholesale, doing jewelry work for the other jewelry stores.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what business was located directly beneath him.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Lawson's Jewelers were right below us, Lawson's Jewelers, and then an entrance to the building and then there was an apparel shop on the other side but I am not sure of the name of that. It could have been, I believe it was, Roth. Roth clothing store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say you don't remember whether this was a two- or three-story building?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was a three-story building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything above the shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, there was an union hall above it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What union was that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am not sure. There was too many unions around there. There was an automotive workers union and the plumbers union and every kind of union you can think of. But I remember it was a union hall because they used to rent it out and they used to have dances up there. I think it was around every Saturday night they would have a dance there and they had their meetings up there and then anybody who wanted to have meetings could rent the place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any other activity up there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Other than Just the dances and the meetings and then this is the place where all the friends of Sam Jaffe and which were, to my honest opinion were, all Communists used to meet up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did they have any gambling up there in that union hall?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had heard but I couldn't say that there definitely was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that they had dancing up there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I was working on Saturday night many times, we stayed open until 9 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say Sam Jaffe's friends used to meet up there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, this was, for the 2 years I had worked with Sam Jaffe, Morton and Herb Pazol, and Phil Jasser, Morton Standt, oh, golly, there were so many of them it is hard to remember--several of the employees from the other jewelery stores, Lawson Jaffe, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lawson Jaffe run Lawson's jewelery store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. He was the nephew to Sam Jaffee. Then there was Roth, I don't remember his first name. Then there was a Pritcher, Max Pritcher, Max and Harry Pritcher.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They were son-in-laws to Sam. One of them was a son-in-law to Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Sam Jaffe at this time, would you say?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say roughly Sam was around 55, 60.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that Sam Jaffe met with his friends up in this union hall?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, all of these people were connected with businesses around Muncie, and they used to come up there at various times to talk with Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To the second floor, to Sam's jewelry store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second floor shop.

294

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Our shop was here and, of course, we had an office over here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We can't see the motions you are making with your hands, this man has a machine.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The office adjacent to the shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to do this. I will give you a piece of paper and a pencil and I want you first to draw us a diagram and we can perhaps talk from the diagram.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. All right.
Our shop is here, and then Mr. Jaffe's office was here next to it. And there was a doorway here and our benches were here. The entrance into the shop was here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Would you want to write "Jaffe's office." Would you want to indicate somewhere where the street is?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This street was here. This was Walnut Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don't you write "Walnut Street" on there.
Now, would you indicate where you, write in there, where you, mentioned the benches were.
If I can state for the record in words, what you have drawn there; you have indicated that there are two rooms to the shop, each room facing on Walnut Street.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The larger room, which is open to the public, has benches in it and the benches run along the entire side of the room which faces Walnut Street.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK.
Let me mark that for identification as George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.
(The diagram referred to was marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. You started to draw this exhibit I think in connection with explaining how people would come into the shop and talk to him.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, the stairway from Walnut Street ran directly below us. It came out about here and they would come around this way and enter the shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the stairway ran up behind the shop, and they would really enter from the back side of the shop, that is?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right, because this was on the second floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. There was a halfway, I take it, on the back side of the shop.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And so that the shop was between the hallway and Walnut Street?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say people would come in and visit in the shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, they would come in here. Mr. Jaffe worked at the first bench here and my bench was the second one here and they would usually go into the office but, of course, I could overhear many of the things they said when they was talking in there.
Now, to my honest opinion, I don't remember whether Mr. Jaffe ever attended any of the meetings upstairs, but they used to come up and talk about having these meetings with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's talk about particular individuals. What particular individual do you remember coming in and talking to him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was one of the main ones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Al1 right now what did Phillip Jasser do for a living?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He had a clothing store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you see Philip Jasser in the store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. On the average they--three or four times a week.

295

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present when he talked with Mr. Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I was in the shop. Many times they would talk right there in the shop also.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversations they had?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. None in particular. I was always taught, I mean, not to interfere with the other people's business but, of course, by overlistening and different things they would be talking about the meeting and who would be there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a meeting did Jasser talk about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. At that time I really didn't know what kind of meetings they were. I think--I knew they had something to do with Russia at that time. That is all I knew, and with the Communist Party. All of them--
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was said that indicated to you that it had to do with Russia?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because Phil Jasser, Morton and Herb Pazol, Morton Standt, Lawson Jaffe, and there was another man, Shuster, and I can't remember his first name, all these men at one time or another have talked to me trying to get me to join their party, to join the Communist Party.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who--let me get these names. You say Standt talked to you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Morton Standt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jasser talked to you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was the worst one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Herb and Morton Pazol had talked to me. They hadn't said too much but they had talked to me at times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. And Lawson Jaffe; and then Shuster.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Shuster's first name?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This I can't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do for a living?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He had a Shuster's Clothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you can think of?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, those were the only ones there in Muncie, Ind. Now, there were several of them that used to come from Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before we get to that let's stay with the people in Muncie.
When was the first time that anyone of these men talked to you about what you called Russia or the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time was Shortly after I went to work for Sam Jaffe, and Phil Jasser came in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he was telling me how wonderful it would be if everybody made the same amount of money whether they owned the store or whether they worked for it, and I can't remember all the stuff he used to give me because he would very seldom get very far before Sam would interrupt and make him get out because Sam refused to let him talk to me if he was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you get some indication that perhaps Sam didn't even want to have these political talks going on?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I always had the feeling that he didn't like it, because now they was more or less down on Sam because of the fact that they used to fly the Russian flag in the synagogue and that was the Jewish temple there, and Sam put up a very strong protest about flying the Russian .flag and said if they was going to live in the United States and be U.S. citizens then they should live by the U.S. flag, and because of that it was my understanding, whether it ever happened or not, but I have been told by two or three different ones, I can't say particularly who they were right now, they were even threatening to throw Sam out of the synagogue because of it.
And I know whenever he came up there or if he ever came in and caught them talking to me about getting on the right side of the fence and joining their party and attending some of these meetings he would immediately jump on him, make him get out and he would lecture to me for 5 or 10 minutes not to pay any attention to them.

296

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of other young men in Muncie whom these men approached?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn't. Not at that time I didn't know any of the other young fellows. Most of them were all of the age of Sam. Lawson was, I think, about the youngest and, of course, his sons-in-law were a little older than I. I would say they was in their late twenties.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps I should make my question a little more clear. Were there other people your age in Muncie whom, that you know of, your friends or what not?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That these men approached?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; none that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known any of these men before you worked for Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that would indicate why they should have approached you about this?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; no reason that I know of outside of the fact I was working for Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were first approached by these people did you tell anybody that you had been--that they had approached you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It wasn't really important to me at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have indicated that you think now that they were approaching you about joining the Communist Party. Did you at that time think that they were approaching you about joining the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they made no bones about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What specifically did they say that would indicate they were talking about the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, now Phil Jasser is the one who talked to me the most and he was always talking about getting on the right side of the fence, and I had asked him specifically on several occasions what he meant by the right side of the fence, and he said well, he said, join the Communist Party. He said, "Join us in this."
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they know you were on the wrong side of the fence?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because I wouldn't attend the meetings, I suppose, I never--
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time, who was the first person to ever approach you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was the first one to ever approach me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This must be a, as you look back, this must be an occasion that you have some recollection of.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; because I didn't know exactly just how to take it. I didn't want to jeopardize my job with Sam Jaffe and I didn't want to be rude to the man, and so, therefore, I told him that I would have to think about it, and I just kept putting him off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say on this first occasion?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, the first time he talked to me it was about how nice it would be if everybody made the same amount of money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to start that conversation with you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't know. I was sitting there working and Sam was out, and Phil came in and he was waiting on Sam so he got to talking to me and asked me how I liked the work and I said fine, I loved it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a hardworking fellow?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I tried to be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what sort of wages did you get at that point?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. When I was serving my apprenticeship I was working for $35 a week to start with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a good wage at that time?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I can't say that it was a good wage, but I was learning a good trade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that you had said or done that would indicate that you were unhappy that you weren't making more money?

297

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about you or any,thing that you had said which would indicate, have indicated to Mr. Jasser that you might be receptive to the kind of things he was saying to you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Nothing that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead and tell us more about this conversation.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, he would--there were so many things there, but the main point he was trying to get across to me was this fact of everybody making more money, everybody made the same amount of money regardless of who their employer--their employer didn't actually make more money than the employees did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time did he mention the Communist Party in that conversation?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not at that time; I would say it took approximately a couple or 3 months before he actually come around and told me then that, now my understanding were they were all Russian Jews but he didn't--I believe he called it the Fifth Party or something like .that, and I didn't even know at that time what he was talking about and then I pointblank asked him why was the Communist Party, why did he consider the Communist Party so much better .than our own democracy that we had here, and he said, "Because eventually," he said, "We are going to rule the entire world." He said it is bound to come.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say, did he use the word "we" or did he say that they would?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, the Communist Party would eventually rule the world.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say the Communist Party or did he say Communist philosophy or Marxist doctrine or something like that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It wasn't Marxist but it seemed to me like he said the Communist Party or the Communists--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be sure at this point whether he said the Communist Party or whether he said philosophy?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I can definitely be sure he said the Communist Party or the Communist, I can't be sure whether he said the Communist Party or the Communist doctrine or what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Something about Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure whether it was the Communist Party, the Communist doctrine or the Communist philosophy?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I am not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And during these conversations what attitude had you indicated?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I wasn't interested. They knew this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he continued to--
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They continued to, just little different things that would be said. I can't remember offhand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you argue with him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I never argued with him. Like I said I didn't want to jeopardize my job there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would these conversations last?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Anywhere from maybe a couple of minutes to 5 or 10 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they all occur up there in the shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they never approached me out of the shop. The only one other man that ever give me a bad time was Lawson Jaffe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody, was anybody else--let me ask you this. Did these conversations continue after you returned from military service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lawson Jaffe approached me one time after I returned from the service, and I can't remember exactly how it all come about or what it was he said, but anyway he made some reference that I would have certainly looked a lot better in a good military uniform. He said, "You looked very, very silly in that Navy uniform."
And that made me mad and I said, "Well, I suppose I should have been in the Russian Army or something." I said, "That would have probably made you

298

happier." He said, "Well, you would have been on the right side of the fence at least." And I said--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it who said this?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was Lawson Jaffe. That was Sam's nephew. I said, "That is your opinion," and I said, "I will keep mine."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present during this conversation?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; Sam was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the conversations and all the rest of the conversations that took place up in Jaffe's--
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They would always approach me whenever Sam was not there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. When Sam was there nobody said anything about this, concerning this, to me in any way, shape, or form.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have the impression that Sam Jaffe was not in sympathy with these people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had the impression that he was not in sympathy or if he was he certainly didn't want me in there. I can't say that Sam had anything against me personally because Sam treated me actually in many ways almost like a father. And I thought enough of Sam that I would have done anything for him. But like I say, he did get quite provoked on several occasions when he would come in there and catch them talking with me, especially Phil Jasser.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period from 1942 to 1944, did Sam Jaffe have any children who were living in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; and this is where I got mixed up. One of them I couldn't even remember until Mr. Mullaney, the FBI there, in Oregon, told me her name, that was Rosalyn, I believe, there was the one daughter that I had never really met. Marion was married to Max Pritcher. How you spell Pritcher, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Marion would you guess?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say around 28 or 29.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She was about 12 years older than you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I would say roughly that is about how old she was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he have any other children?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was the only daughter that I knew of living in Muncie at that time. Now, where Rosalyn lived I don't know. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was married to Seymour Jasson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was living with Seymour who?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Jasson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. J-a-s-s-o-n; I would assume.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody besides Phil Jasser and Lawson Jaffe ever have any conversations with you about communism?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Herb and Morton Pazol would mention it but they never--I can't actually say. Their comments would more or less be made to the place where I could hear them but not directed. I don't believe directly at me .but yet it was put in such a way that I would have taken it to have been directed at me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that all of the conversations that you had with these men occurred between 1942 and 1944 with the exception of the one conversation you had after you got out of the service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, after I got out of the service, that is when I got into the argument with Lawson, and then I believe Phil Jasser had, he had mentioned, I think on one or two occasions had said something about they had more or less after I had been in the service, they had more or less shied away from me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first come to think that these men were Communists?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was in either the latter part of 1946 or the early part of 1947.

299

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, before this you indicated that one of them had asked you to join the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, you mean when I knew all of these men belonged to the Communist Party?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; when did you know that any one of them--
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That would have been in 1942 that was shortly after I went to work for Sam Jaffe, Phil Jasser spoke to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You formed the opinion then that Phil Jasser was a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH, Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any of these men that you have mentioned whom You don't think were Communists?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, you have indicated you didn't think Sam Jaffe was a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Sam Jaffe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his son-in-law, Max Pritcher? Do you have any doubts about his being a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think he was a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he was always there at the meetings; whenever they were going to have a meeting upstairs why he was always there. They would all be up there in the afternoon and they would talk about being at the meeting at night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people attended the meetings that you are talking about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't know; because the days or the evenings that they had their meeting, I had never been in the building, but I would Judge there must have been quite a few from the list of names that I picked up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You never attended any of those meetings; did you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time the meetings took place?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I couldn't tell you that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did they take place in the afternoon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; they was in the evening, usually at night, anyway it was after everything was closed, after 5:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How many of these men would come to your shop at any one time before these meetings?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Very seldom would there be over three or four at any one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would they do--what would they do when they would come into your shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They would go into the office with Sam and usually talk about different ones who were going to come and things like that. Whenever they got to talking about what the meeting was about I never overheard anything like that because they usually lowered their voices.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when they said--what you would do is see two or three men come into the shop and they would go into Sam Jaffe's office. They would have a conversation but you wouldn't know what the conversation was about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, then upon what do you base your conclusion that the meetings that you think they had upstairs were Communist meetings?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, back at that time there was no actually secret among any of them to the fact--they didn't actually publicize it, don't get me wrong, but they didn't deny that they were Communists, and Sam, of course, had told me that the majority of them were all Communists.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Jaffe had told you that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; and told me not to listen to them and not to pay any attention to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that his son-in-law, Max Pritcher, was a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he said that Max and all of them, and he said, now he says, "I don't think Max or Seymour will ever say anything to you because,"

300

he says, "I have given them definite orders not to say anything to you," and he said, "I don't think Lawson will ever talk to you."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you don't have any knowledge, though, do you, as to whether these people were what one would call card-carrying members of the party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; this I couldn't say, at least I had never seen any of them with a card or none of them had ever shown me a card.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that these men were doing anything other than discussing Marxist philosophy?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don't think they was--I think that is all they talked about. I know, one of the main things they used to get into the biggest argument about was who was doing the most during the war Russia or the United States, and Russia, of course, they said was doing everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it fair to say from your observations that you don't know whether there was anything more than a philosophical discussion or general discussion of political ideas taking place?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, that would be the only way I could put it because I never knew of anything else that they--
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any information that there was any sort of espionage or anything like that going on?
Mr. FEHEENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you make the statement that, for example, Max Pritcher was a Communist, what you are saying is that he discussed with these other men the Communist philosophy.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. How so much better if they could get the United States to see their way, and I don't know, they just didn't agree with anything the U.S. Government done in any way, shape or form. This is, I suppose, one reason that turned me more or less against all of them, I mean, because that and the fact that Lawson Jaffe and everyone of them at one time or another ridiculed the United States.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of your friends or family about these people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. My mother knew about it, and, of course, I suppose I said something to my father, although I was my father and I didn't talk too much. He was never home, and I never saw him too much. And then, of course, after I was married why my wife knew about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any friends about it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that You have never reported to any government agency the fact that you thought these particular men were Communists?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. How could I prove it? The only time but I did report at one time, and this was after I came back from the service, and I went up there one morning, I knew they was having a meeting upstairs the night before because so many different ones had come in and apparently this must have been a real rally meeting because they were coming in from Chicago and several different places and this is one of the times, this was to my opinion, to the best of my knowledge, this was the last time that I met the man that they called Jack Rubenstein, and he came in with Seymour Jasson, and one or two other men from Chicago. And the next morning when I went back to work they had taken one of the chairs out of the shop and I had to go upstairs to the hall and get the chair.
The door wasn't locked and I went in and I picked the chair up and there was a table in there. Well, there were tables down both sides of the hallway and then one across the front of the room, and there was a sheaf of papers on the table up in front where our chair was, and I didn't really pay any attention to it then until I happened to glance at it and there was a list of names and to my recollection there were two or three sheets full of names on there, and I glanced at the first few of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe these sheets of paper?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, all it was was, I would say, typewritten paper, typewriter paper, similar to typewriter paper. It might have been a little longer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the names handwritten or typewritten?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The names were all typewritten. There were no addresses, if I remember correctly there were no addresses, and the first few names I looked

301

at and there was Lawson Jaffe at the top, I think he was the first one, I don't believe I can put them right directly in order and I can only remember the first four or five.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how many names were there altogether would you estimate on this list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There must have been 100, 150, three pages of them typewritten and how many names they could get on one page I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us who the names were on the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first One I can remember there was Lawson Jaffe, Herb and Morton Pazol, Morton Standt and Shuster's name, and I can't remember what his first name was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say he was in the clothing business?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was in the clothing business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a garment workers union that was upstairs?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or a clothing workers union?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't believe it was garment workers. The only one that I can think of that it might have been was the automotive workers union hall. I don't even know why I think that because that is the only one that I can think of that could have been up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What industries were there in Muncie at the time?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, there was Borg-Warner Corp., Chevrolet, Delco- Remy, Ball Brothers, who made Ball fruit jars.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the automobile industry the big industry in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was the biggest one I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any clothing manufacturers?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the electrical industry? Was there the electrical industry
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There wasn't at that time; no, or to the best of my knowledge, there wasn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any heavy industry such as steel mills or--
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; there were several factories but like I said most of them were all either making parts for automobiles or--there was no assembly plants there but it was all--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us any other names you remember on the list.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Seymour Jasson and Max and Harry Pritcher was on there, and if I remember correctly, although I can't swear to this, but it seems to me that Jack Rubenstein was on there, sixth or seventh doom on the list.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that the name Jack Rubenstein was on there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, there was another man whose name wasn't Rubenstein, it was Rosenstein, I believe, Rosenstein I had never heard of or I never met, I had heard of him but I had never met him. But Rubenstein I had met on two or three different occasions and when I seen it it more or less, wondered at the time if he was actually a member, because he had never said anything to me concerning it. But there was a Jack, and this is one reason why I say it was Jack Rubenstein because I can't recall what Rosenstein's name was but it wasn't Jack, and this fellow's name was Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What you remember most clearly is that on this list there was a man whose name was Jack?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right; and then the rest of it started with an "R" and there was a "stein" on the end of it and that was as far as I got. I laid it back down and I got to thinking about it and I said, "Well, Lawson Jaffe, you give me a bad time and I will just give you a bad time," so I picked it up, folded it up, put it inside my shirt and took the chair down to the shop and I thought I would give this to the FBI.
They were in Indianapolis and I suppose I should have called them long distance and told them I had it but I didn't, and Merv Collins was the chief of detectives and also my wife's uncle and I thought I would give it to him and he would give it to them so he was the man I gave it to.

302

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He said, "I will see it gets into the proper hands."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he knew about this?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He didn't seem at all surprised. But he said, "I will see that these get into the proper hands." I told him what I thought this was or what they were, I believe this was a muster list of the Communist Party that have been holding meetings here and I said, "I know this." I said I have known of several meetings and they have had and I said I have heard them when they all come up that they were holding a meeting that night and I said I went up there and this list was on the table and I said I thought they ought to be given to the proper authority and he said, "I will see that it gets into the proper hands."
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you retain that list before you gave it to Mr. Collins?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I put it in my shirt and I think that was about, it must have been around, 9 o'clock in the morning, between 9 and 9:30, and then I went out of the shop, just shortly thereafter because it was burning a hole in my belly, the thing was. I knew I didn't want to hold onto it and so I made the excuse of getting out of the shop and going for a cup of coffee, I can't remember what it was that I told Sam I was going to do, so I took it directly from there over to Merv Collins and back to the shop. Just so I got it off my--that is all I was worried about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when was the next time that you had occasion to think about the names that were on that list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, actually I regretted, and I still regret in a way that I didn't actually take time to look, read all the names but I didn't. All I did was look at the first few and seen who they were and now these were boys who had at one time said something to me or indicated that they were Communists, and so I just figured they all were. And I figured if it was given to the proper authorities they could investigate and find out for themselves or find out for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever inquire of Mr. Collins what had become of that list after you gave it to him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because actually, I don't believe there was any law against the Communist Party at that time unless they was doing actually sabotaging or teaching the violent overthrow of the Government or something like that and as far as I know none of these men were practicing anything like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that in the late forties and early fifties when the country was very interested in these kind of activities, Senator McCarthy and people in the Congress were active in this, is there any reason why at that time you didn't make known your experience in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I had turned the list in, and so I just took it for granted if they wanted to talk to me about anything about it that they would have contacted me, and it never dawned on me, that Merv never turned it over to the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in Muncie--
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in the period from 1948 to 1952. isn't that right?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; 1950, 1950, and 1951 was back in the service at Green Cove Springs and then I came back and I was There for the rest of 1951, and I believe it was in 1952 when we moved to Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All of the late forties you were in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And for a while in 1952 you were in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were aware of what information was being developed by the Communist Party in Muncie, at that time, weren't you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period in the late forties and the early fifties when Senator McCarthy and other people in the Congress were very interested in

303

Communist activities throughout the country, I take it you were paying attention to what information they were developing about Muncie, if any?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, for about a year and a half, 2 years directly, let's see, that would have been latter part of 1948, 1949, and 1950, until I was called back in the service, I was working with Warner Gear and I wasn't actually in contact with them so I didn't know what they were doing at that time but I know nothing actually developed out of the list so I assume they knew who they were, and that I just felt that I had done what I should have done, and so if they wanted to talk to me they could have and I never brought it up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, has the House Un-American Activities Committee or any other committee of the Congress conducted an investigation into Communist activities in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not to my knowledge; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during this period when the Congress was very interested in this, were you attentive to whether or not they were investigating Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I often wondered why nothing ever came out of what they was doing there in Muncie.
Mr. GRIFFIN I am wondering why then at that point you didn't make known to somebody the fact that you had information which led you to believe that there was a Communist Party group in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because I had already turned the list in and I felt I had already informed them that they were there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. You see this is what I didn't know until just recently, that Merv Collins never turned the list over to the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find that out?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Mr. Mullaney said there was no record of that list ever being turned in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Now then, I will also tell you this now. At the time my wife and I was talking about it the other day, shortly after I turned this list in, we used to have--my wife and I lived out in the country, we had our first child at that time, and there would be somebody, sometimes there was one, sometimes there was two or three men in a car, used to park out in front of our house and they would sit out there sometimes as high as an hour to maybe 3 or 4 hours, and very seldom under an hour, and we had called, my wife mentioned this the other day when I told her that the list had never been turned in and she says, "Well, do you reckon he could have been a member?" And I said I didn't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Collins?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. It never occurred to me, her own uncle, and I said it never occurred to me. She says, "You know, we used to call him and tell him these fellows were following you home and sitting out in front at night and he used to say it was just a paperboy, not to worry about it."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, who were the people who were following you home? I didn't get that.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had no idea, I never recognized any of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would this continue?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It went on, I would say, for a period of, I would say 5, maybe 6 months that this went on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this approximately?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was in 1947 or 1948, let's see, the oldest boy was born, it was and he was born because we had the baby and he was just a baby at that time. He was born in June of 1947, so it would have been from on up until about Christmastime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to believe that they were following you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was quite obvious. When I left town the car would leave right behind me, follow me all the way out into the country, down the same roads and everything and when I pulled in the drive the same car would go on past the house, turn around and come back and then park.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How close to your house would it park?

304

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, right in front of it usually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was across the street?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Just, there was a barn lot across the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A barn lot?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; just nothing but a field across the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you ever get a look at these people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; every time I would--I used to get quite provoked at them sitting out there and there would be several occasions when I would go out of the house and go toward the car and ask them what they were doing, but every time I started out the driveway they would leave. So, I actually never got a good look at any of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think these people were following you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I have no idea, but the only thing that I can figure is that they--I had been asked, I had been asked by Lawson Jaffe, I had been asked by the Pazols, and I don't know, there were several different ones, Phil Jasser, all of them had asked me at one time if I had seen any papers lying up in this office or in this union hall when I went up there, and, of course, I denied that. I didn't see anything when I went up there. All I did was went up and got the chair.
"Sam can tell you," I said, "when I came down I didn't have anything but the chair, that was all I could see, that was all I was sent up there for."
Then Sam talked to me on two or three different times and asked me, he said, "If you did take the list I am not going to tell anybody, but did you actually take the list or see it up there?" And I said, "No," I didn't even tell him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did they indicate that list was about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They didn't. They would never tell me. All they said there were two or three sheets of paper, said, "Didn't you see them laying there? And I said, "No," I never did see them. But they would never tell me what it was all about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it besides Sam Jaffe, was it Lawson Jaffe who asked you about the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lawson, Phil Jasser, Herb and Morton Pasol had asked me. So in other words, they all knew I had been up there that morning to get this chair, and that apparently they all draw their own conclusions that I was the one who had to pick up that list. And this went on, I know, for a long time after I had picked that list up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about that list which would indicate that they might have all been members of some other group that wasn't a Communist group? For example, that they could all have been members of the same synagogue, it could have been a church affiliated group?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, there was nothing on the paper to indicate what it was about, or what they were members of. To my knowledge there wasn't, unless it would have been on one of the other pages. Like, I say, I didn't go through them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Sam Jaffe inquired about this list?
Mr. FEHENBACH. Yes, Sam wanted to know, he said they are going to get a little unhappy with you because they think you have taken those papers from up there in the hall, and I said, "Well, Sam, I didn't see them when I was up there."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, don't you think that--let me ask you this. Did Sam Jaffe indicate that he had anything to do with that list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. He was, I think, more or less trying to find out if I had the list and if I would give these papers back to him he would see they would get back to them and they would leave me alone. I think this was the only reason why Sam wanted the list or these papers, as they kept referring to them. They never referred to them as a list, but said papers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other papers up there beside the list of names?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn't see them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, you were going to say something.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Actually, I feel if I had had them as rough as some of them were getting about it and as nasty as they were getting about it, I would have

305

given them back to Sam. But I had turned them over to Merv Collins and couldn't give them back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You never told anybody about it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because they were getting a little nasty about it, and Lawson Jaffe came to me and said, "If I find out you took those papers I am going to cut your blooming throat," those were his exact words and they were getting to be quite nasty about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the people who were listed on that list, were they all in the jewelry business that you knew?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, they was in the clothing business, in the jewelry business and Seymour Jasson, Sam's other son-in-law, was in show business of some kind in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Seymour was in show business?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. He had, I would say, it was--anyway they knew an awful lot of entertainers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What can you say about him, can you describe Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, he was roughly around 5'10'', 5'11", and dark complexion, very handsome fellow, black wavy hair, curly hair, I guess you could call it. I believe it was halfway between curly and wavy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a son-in-law of Sam Jaffe who had red hair?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The only thing I can remember about Max Pritcher was he was short and fat but I don't remember whether he had black hair or red hair. But it seems to me there was one that used to come up there with red hair but now who he was, I don't know. It looked odd to me because I knew he was definitely Jewish, and he had red hair, and--but I can't remember who he was or Rosalie or Rosalyn, I can't honestly say I ever met her husband, in fact I don't even remember her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The only two you remember are Marion and Charlotte?
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you meet Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Seymour used to come down, Seymour and Charlotte used to come down, quite often, oh, I would say in a period of once every couple or 3 months they would come down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you might have seen him a dozen times?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. At least a dozen times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the occasions that they came from Chicago to Muncie, did they ever bring any friends with them?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. There was, usually when they came down there was, anywhere from, Seymour and Charlotte, and then this Jack Rubenstein had come with them on three occasions that I know of.
Whether he had ever come any more than that I am not sure.
Then there was always--whether anybody else come with them or not I don't know. Then, of course, there was this here blonde girl that this Jack Rubenstein, whether it was his wife or girl friend, who she was, I don't know. Now, those four used to be together all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any other people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't recall any of the others that came down with them. This Seymour and this Jack Rubenstein it was my impression they were very good friends. They were both in show business or some kind of business there pertaining to entertainment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there were other people who came down with Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, whether they actually came down with them or not I don't know but I know usually at one time or another during the time they would all seem to be gathering up there in the shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don't remember the names of any of the other people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because I was never actually introduced to any of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I was introduced to Jack Rubenstein, the first time I was introduced to him, I can't remember, I was working in the shop and they were in the office working, and Sam called me in there and introduced me, and somehow he asked me something about cards but I can't remember how it was that it came up.

306

Anyway, an ordinary playing deck of cards, and this Jack Rubenstein was quite adept at playing cards, you could shuffle the deck and hand it to him and he could still give you almost any card he wanted.
There were other things they had done. He and this blonde girl worked together. He would take a piece of paper and write your names, different dates, when you were born, stuff like that, and fold it up in four or five squares and then I would give it to Jack, and he would hold it in his hands and then this other girl would tell me exactly what I put on the paper.
How they done it I don't know. This was----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that Jack Rubenstein was in show business?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to believe that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he had told me--now this was in, I believe on his second time that he was down there, there was some talk about Sam sending me to Chicago to work with a man there, a Mr. Levinson, I believe the man's name was, who was a diamond setter, and this was all that he done was diamond setting and Sam wanted me to go up and work with him for a few months to learn more about diamond setting.
Anyway, we were in the middle of the plans about the second time that this Jack Rubenstein came in there and when Jack came in, he acted very friendly and wanted to know how I was and this and that, and then we in the course of the conversation, why Sam said something about my coming to Chicago maybe and working for Mr. Levinson there, and Jack said, "Fine" he said, "when you come," he said, "I want you to come around to my place, and anything you want is on the house."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Indicating that he ran some sort of an entertainment place?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. It was either a nightclub or tavern or something, I don't know. I never actually knew that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. But I know Sam told me he said, "well now," he said "there you go; you would have to sit in the back room because you are not 21," but he said "they have got peep holes and you can still see the show."
I took it for granted it was a nightclub and apparently they had some kind of a show they put on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any--what do you remember most about this fellow whom you called Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The most I remember about him was he was a very nice looking fellow. He was very jolly, and he was what I would call a real character because he was always cutting up, laughing, always jolly, very happy-go-lucky more or less, so to speak.
And as I made the comment the other day, I made it, I think on several occasions, I thought he was nuts because he didn't marry that blonde girl, because she was just about, they was two of a kind.
She was jolly, and happy-go-lucky, and I know, I was always under the impression that she was very much in love with Jack because she just absolutely idolized him. She would never get too far way from his side and never take her eyes off him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You refer to this man as Jack Rubenstein. How certain are you that his name was Jack?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Everybody referred to him as Jack. But now I will say this; there is one thing that I don't understand and this is one reason why after this Jack Ruby shot Oswald, I didn't connect him because I had never heard him referred to as Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How sure are you that this man you saw; his name was Rubinstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Being introduced to him on two or three occasions and it was always as Jack Rubenstein.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been Rosenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, it could not have been Rosenstein. The Rosenstein they talked about, like I said, I never met the man but I heard them talking about was in Cincinnati, Ohio, or Dayton, Ohio, one or the other and he was a very

307

close associate to Lawson Jaffe, and it is my impression that Rosenstein was a lawyer because I know Lawson Jaffe is the one who talked about him mostly and apparently this--he took care of legal matters or something for Lawson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you believe was the first time that you ever saw the man you call Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time that I remember or that I met him, the time I was introduced to him and showed the card tricks and things was around, I believe it would have had to have been in 1943.
I went to work for Sam in 1942 and I had worked for him quite some time. Maybe he had been there before, I don't know but I don't remember him being there.
At least I had never been introduced to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of 1943?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It must have been in the summertime, it would have had to have been in the summertime, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it then?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. By the way they were dressed because I remember when they first introduced me he looked so out of place because he had a very nice looking suit. We had--he had one of the loudest sports shirts I had ever seen in my life and I remember when he took his coat off it was a short-sleeved shirt and if I remember correctly it was a real bright red, and I know it was a very loud sport shirt and it just looked completely out of place with the suit he had on.
And that is why, was the only reason why I connect it with being in the summertime. I don't recall them having topcoats or anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is what makes you remember this fellow; his clothing, his card tricks, his girl friend, or what?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I think just his; like I said he was a real character, and he was always very, very friendly. Offered to take me out to lunch whenever he was there, and in fact I did go to lunch with him one time, in fact, we went, now this is what Max Pritcher was doing, Max had the restaurant on Main Street, and I was just going out to lunch on the second time that Jack was there, and we had been up there talking and this is the time we was talking that, about me going to Chicago, and Jack said, "Fine," he said, "you can come up to my place, for an evening, you can come up there and really have a good time."
And I was----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, was this before you went into the service or after?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was before I went into the service.
Mr. GRIFFFIN. I see.
So, this was either in the summer of 1943 or later?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Summer of 1943, the first time I was introduced to him and when we went out to lunch it was early in 1944 and it was wintertime at that time because I know we walked from Jaffe's to the restaurant. And we had to put on our topcoats because it was about two or three blocks away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to try to focus a little bit on the time here. What possibility is there that it could have been before the summer of 1943. Could it have been in the summer of 1942 that you saw him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I don't believe so, because, for the simple reason I say this is because the second time I remember when I went out to dinner with him it was in the wintertime and I know it hadn't been too long that he had been there because if it had been too long I wouldn't have remembered him but I did remember him when he came in, so I don't believe it could have been over 6 or 7 months, and I, thinking back, it just doesn't seem like it would have been too long. In fact, I would say it more likely would have been late summer in 1943.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the first time you talked with the FBI about this it was your recollection that it was in the spring of 1943. Do you recall that? At least this is what they have reported.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. As I told them, I can't remember, at the time I called them, I just couldn't remember. I couldn't go back 18 years ago or 20 years ago and actually put my finger on any definite time or place, and----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think your recollection now as a result of this conversation we have been having is better than it was----

308

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think so. Not only that but I have had a lot of time to think about this, and I am just almost certain, I mean in our conversation here that it must have been in the summer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of which year?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Of 1943.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were going to tell me, I think when I interrupted you, that the second time that you met him you and he went to a restaurant?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. Now the second time--I don't know if this blonde girl was with him the second time or not, it seems to me she was, but she wasn't with him when him and Seymour came up the shop or Charlotte. Yes, Charlotte was with him or came in later. Anyway----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you now; are you sure on this second occasion that he came to Muncie with Charlotte and Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he did come with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because they had been talking about the trip and they had had some trouble or something, I can't remember what it was, anyway they was talking about what had happened, and then also they was talking about when they was going to leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were they going, someplace else from Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; they was going back to Chicago and how long they were intending to stay; I don't know. It seems to me I would say it was 3 or 4 days that I seen them around there. But anyway, Jack Rubenstein and I went on to the restaurant, and we had lunch over there, and Jack paid for everything, and then just as we was leaving, why then Charlotte and Seymour came in, and then I went back to the shop and where Jack went I don't know. He went someplace else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to come to the shop without Seymour and Charlotte?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He just walked in. To my opinion, he knew Sam quite well, I mean apparently they had been, had known each other for quite some time. So there was talk; I had heard them talking about different things that had happened before, and wanted to know how each other were and were referring to different ones, different members that they knew, or different members of each family that they knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything in Jack Rubenstein's conversation that indicated to you that he might have been in the Jewelry business?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any indication that he may have been in any business outside of show business or running a bar?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. None that I know of. At least not around me there was never anything said, because to me he was always talking about his establishment, that is what he called it, his establishment, and said he had two of the prettiest girls working for him that could be found in Illinois or Indiana, and he was quite proud of them, and I think in my opinion also he was quite a woman's man. I don't know, just the way he talked about women is where I suppose I draw that conclusion. And he was something of, like I say, of a real dandy himself. I mean he was always very well dressed, always very neat, but, like I say, that second time was the time, in fact, I wasn't even sure I wanted to go down the street with him with that bright red shirt; no, that was the first time, with that bright red shirt. It really amazed me that a man could be so well dressed and still have on such a gaudy shirt and I think, this is my first recollection of him when I met him, because anyway he acted--cutting up all the time and joking, and I more or less thought to myself, what kind of a nut is this guy. But now the first time he dressed quite gaudy, the second time he was very well dressed, and the last time I saw him which was in, it was either in 1946 or 1947, I don't recall which, there was after I came back from the service, him and Seymour and Charlotte came back up there, and this time the blonde wasn't with him I don't think, at least I don't recall seeing her now, and he was very cool. He wasn't the same Jack Rubenstein that I had known before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any explanation for that?

309

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I have none. I mean he was decent but he wasn't just his jocular self, always joking and cutting up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When approximately was this when you saw him, 1946 or 1947?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was 1946 or 1947. It was after I had came back from the service and had gone to work for Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get out of the service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. In 1946.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when it was?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. June 21 when I was discharged. I was off about 2 weeks and went back to work for Sam. Now one thing that I hadn't remembered or hadn't said anything to the boys there in Medford was there was, and I didn't remember it until the other day when they brought it up, actually, I don't place any connection on it, he called me and asked me if there was ever any other employees of Sam's. Before I went in the service I was the only employee. When I came back from the service, Sam had expanded, he had opened up, I guess I should put this on here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he had opened up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he open up something behind you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. A jewelry store; he was doing retail jewelry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this new store he opened up adjacent, directly connected with it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. His jewelry store came out here, this part was exactly the same.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw on Exhibit No. 1 what he opened up in 1946 or 1947 and then indicate by some sort of language on the diagram that this was a new addition and the date that it was opened?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The date it was opened I don't know, but when I returned in 1946 he had it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don't you say new addition by time you returned from service.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Do you want me to put retail jewelry store?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; why don't you do that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he was wholesale before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now go ahead with what you were going to say about that.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. After I came back from the service he had his retail jewely store and there was a lady working for him by the name of Marie Shaw. She took care of the books for him and done some selling, I believe. Sam, in the meantime, had taken another boy in, was teaching him jewelry work, and his name was Bill Miller.
Now Bill didn't stay there very long, approximately, I think, if I remember correctly, I think Bill was only there 4 or 5 months, and then he quit, and suppose this is one reason, I couldn't even remember the man's name the other day when Mr. Mullaney called me, I couldn't remember the man's last name. I remember it was Bill. But I had to--in fact, Mr. Mullaney called my wife and she told him what his name was, Bill Miller.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. So I didn't place any connection on him and that was the only other employee that I knew of Sam having.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was either Shaw or Miller working there at the time you found this list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; Mary Shaw was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she aware that you had found the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she aware that Sam Jaffe was trying to get the list from you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't believe so. I don't recall if Miss Shaw was ever

310

around when they had questioned me at all; I can't remember she was ever around at anytime. She could have possibly been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed there when Jack--did Jack Rubenstein ever visit the store when she was there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I am quite sure that she was there on the last time that I seen him. She would have had to be there I am sure she was--because this was after I came back from the service and I don't recall Mary ever taking a vacation or anything. She was always there, maybe once or twice I remember she was off sick but I am quite sure she was there. However, I don't recall--yes; that is before, I was going to say the card tricks, I don't recall her being there but then, of course, she wasn't because he didn't have the jewelry store then but the last time he was there. I am quite sure Mary would have had to have been there unless she was off sick or something. And now that was the time, like I say, that Jack was rather distant. He came in and he spoke, and that was about the length of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come in with anybody at that time?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he came in with Seymour and Charlotte at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was this before or after you found the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was after I found the list but I can't remember. It could have been before, too, I just could not say for sure whether it was before or after I found the list.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a matter of a couple of days or a couple of weeks before or after?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say roughly it would be right around very nearly the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It could have been after. I just can't say for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any recollection, I take it, or do you, that Jack Rubenstein, that you saw Jack Rubenstein on the same day that the meeting took place on which you found this list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don't think that it was on the same day. I do remember when I seen Jack's name on that list, it struck me as rather odd because, well not actually odd either, I don"t know, I just, even though that Jack came down with Seymour and he knew all the rest of them, I couldn't place him. He was so much different than what the rest of them were, and I just never connected him with being a member of the party. But now that I think about it, by seeing his name on there it must have been after I turned that list in that I seen him again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after would be your best estimate. I don't want you to guess, I want you to try to give an informed estimate if you can and if you can't make any informed estimate then we should indicate it.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I just can't member. I just have no idea. Because it was just, 1ike I say, he walked in, he came into the jewelry store that time, he came back through the office, poked his head around the corner and said, "Sam, how are you?" He said, "Hello, Bill," everybody else started calling me George, but he called me Bill, he said, "Hello, Bill." Seymour and Charlotte come in and Charlotte come over and spoke to me for a while and Seymour, this Jack Rubenstein, and Sam went into the other office, and Charlotte and I were talking for a little while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you a photograph which I have marked George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. Would you look at that and tell me if you recognize either of the people in that photograph?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. He is not familiar but she is. He is a little familiar but I couldn't place the name on either one of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could she be the blond girl that you recall being with Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. If she is she is a lot older now than she was then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you that picture was taken in the 1940--in the 1940's rather?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it couldn't have been because this other girl was, unless that is a very poor photograph, the other girl was quite slender.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet anyone by the name of Benjamin Kanter?

311

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; that is not familiar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you another photograph which I have marked George William Fehrenbach Deposition, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, and tell me if you recognize anyone in that picture?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Now these both are very familiar but I can't actually place their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He is very familiar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man look like the man you remember as Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man look like anybody you recall having seen with Seymour and Charlotte Jasson?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. To the best of my knowledge, as I say, I can't place the name. He is very familiar but it seems to me he has been up there, it is not anybody that lived around Muncie that I remember of. But apparently it must have been one who came from Chicago. He is quite familiar. But she is not too familiar though, and yet it seems like I have seen her sometime, somewhere. But he is quite familiar but I can't put a name on him. But it is definitely not the one I remember as Jack Rubenstein.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a person by the name of Harold Sugerman?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a man by the name of Irwin Berkstead?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The name is familiar but I can't associate it. I can't remember ever meeting the man. It seems the name, like I say, it seems like I heard of it but I couldn't say where.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any other difficulties with Sam Jaffe other than in connection with the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think possibly Sam was a little unhappy with me when I quit because I had quit and tried to start a shop of my own. Several of the jewelry stores around had asked me if I wouldn't start a shop up and do their work for them because they were a little unhappy with Sam because he had started a retail store up and he was a competitor and Sam always seemed like he was always very friendly but it seemed he was not the same Mr. Jaffe I had worked with before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever accuse you of anything other than taking that list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. And he never accused me of taking that either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever accuse you of taking a bracelet or any jewelry?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you left Mr. Jaffe, did you continue to work in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I went to work in a shop of my own and I was with Herb and Morton Pazol in their store in the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked with the Pazols?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was working for myself but I was doing their work free for the rental of the space.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you rent the space in the Pazol store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say approximately about 6 months. It didn't last very long because Herb and Morton and I just couldn't get along.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the basis of your disagreement?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, they were too demanding. They thought I should do all of their work first and then do the other store's work. I don't know, I think Morton and I was the one that more or less couldn't see eye-to-eye on many things. It seemed like it would take very little for us to get into an argument. One thing, I think Morton and I got into a row was he kept bringing all these here magazines and this was this newspaper that he kept bringing down there and he would leave them in my shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of magazines?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The magazines I can't remember. I know I used to throw them in the waste basket when they were in there but this one newspaper, the Daily Worker or something to that effect, and I was always complaining about him coming down there and he would always come down and nibble around my bench, moving things around on me, whether he knew anything about a jeweler

312

or not, this is just something we cannot tolerate because we know where everything is laying on our bench, and Morton had a very bad habit of coming down and moving things and then he would always bring these papers down and we was always constantly in it so I just got to the place where I couldn't get along with him, so I just quit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you move to after that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, when I quit there I went to work for Warner Gear.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for them as a jeweler?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; that was Borg-Warner, as a machine operator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you believe at the time you were working for Borg-Warner Gear or Warner Gear, that Morton Pazol was a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I would assume he was. He was before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now this newspaper that he was receiving, was that some sort of, did it appear to be a Communist newspaper?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It appeared to me because like I say I used to throw all the magazines in the waste basket and I threw a couple of the papers away and he gave me the devil. And I wondered what was so important, and I read one of them and here again this newspaper, it seemed to me like it was the Daily Worker and it was blasting the U.S. Government for this and for that and was running the President and everything down in the Government.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say he was leaving these, he wasn't leaving it for anybody to pick up? Was he leaving it for the trash collector?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; he was leaving it for me because no outside people could come into my shop but I believe he was leaving them for me because he believed I would read them. They never said anything to me, after I came back from the service Herb or Morton never said anything to me about the party in any way, shape, or form. In fact, if I remember correctly, Herb and Morton treated me about as nice as any of them in Muncie, Ind., after I came back from the service. In fact, they were much friendlier than the rest of them were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The rest of them meaning?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The rest of them, the other people, acquaintances that I knew through Sam before I went into the service. Then not only that, after I turned that list in, I think this is one reason why Morton and I couldn't get along because it seemed like even Herb it didn't take too much before they would find some reason, any reason, to start complaining, and----
Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you took the list from them, they still rented out space in their store to you in the building?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they did. Like I say that blew over, and then on, I don't know, I could say that list was forgotten about as far as I was concerned, I mean nothing ever had been said about it for sometime and Herb and Morton continued to be, they were a little cool for a while but then they become very friendly again, in fact, Herb and Morton actually lent me enough money to start this shop. I had some money of my own and they put up the rest of it, and then I can't recall what happened or how it happened or anything about it. It was something about that list came up again after I had been with Pazols for about 3 or 4 months, it was shortly after I was there, and then, well, I know Lawson came down here, and he told me that he frankly thought I was a no-good bum because I had quit Sam and went to work for competitors and two or three stores had started sending me work that they used to send to Sam, and he said not only that, he says, "'I happen to know for a fact you were the one who took that list or these papers at the meeting." He said "papers" and he didn't say "list." Herb and Morton were both there and it was right after that that they become very cool. Herb stayed very social but Morton, like I said, it didn't take very much for him to get started again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that bingo games were held up in that third floor?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they used to have bingo games up there, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Jaffes attend these bingo games?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Pazols attend?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; not that I know of. 313

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have any knowledge, would you know if they did?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I believe there would have been something said about it if they had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did the bingo games usually start?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I couldn't say because I never went to any of them myself but I would say somewhere around 7 o'clock, because it seems to me we had worked late a few evenings and I knew when they was going on up there, but after it did get started we usually quit because there was so much noise you couldn't hear anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the union occupying that third floor after you got back from the service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. All I remember they said it was a union hall, but I don't remember ever a union meeting being up there and I don't remember what union it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was really just a big hall. It wasn't offices for any union or anything?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it was just actually one great big hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you know, do you recall, that they made some arrests up there on the third floor in connection with some of those bingo games?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; unless it would have been done late at night and I just didn't hear anything about it. I don't recall anything being done up there. I recall, it seems to me, to the best of my knowledge, the best I can remember, I think they finally stopped it because the ministerial alliance there was going to complain about it. But whether there was ever any arrest made up there or not, I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Sam Jaffe ever tell you that he had an aunt and uncle who were killed by the Communist in Poland?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't remember anything like that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't remember Sam ever talking about Poland. The only thing he ever talked to me about was the Russian people. He never told me how they lived or anything. I had always got the impression that he could have possibly at one time been an officer in the Russian Army.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jaffe was Russian rather than Polish?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was definitely Russian.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Or at least he had always said that he was. He was Russian, like he told me on so many occasions, he was Russian-Jewish.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the time that you worked there for Jaffe in 1946 or 1947, were you working for him on a full-time basis?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work for him on a part-time basis?
Mr. FEHRENRACH. No; I think whenever I worked for Sam it was always on a full-time basis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller working for Jaffe on a full-time basis when you worked for him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. After I came back from the service and went back to work for Sam it seems to me that somehow we did split up there. I think maybe Bill Miller worked a half day and I worked a half day but if we did it was for a very short period of time. It didn't last very long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, was Miller hired to replace you when you went into the service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I assumed he was; yes, he was there when I came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he continue to work there after you left Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; he quit long before I did because after I came back from the service and went to work for Sam it was to the best of my knowledge Bill was only there 3 months at the very longest. And possibly not even that long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't we take a break here?
(Short recess.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that this fellow that you know as Jack Rubenstein had any nicknames of any sort?

314

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don't recall anybody calling him anything except Jack. It was either Jack or Mr. Rubenstein and I have never heard him called as Ruby.
There is one reason after we saw it on TV it said Jack Ruby and I believe it was the day after that they came out and said his name was Jack Rubenstein, and then when--of course, they didn't have a real, I never got to see a good picture of that, until a day or so after the actual killing, that when it came out his name as Jack Rubenstein, I don't remember if I heard the radio, TV, or saw in the paper or what, I mentioned it to my wife and I said I knew a Jack Rubenstein one time, she said maybe it is the same man and I said why, I don't think so. That was in Texas and this was back in Indiana and he was from Chicago. Then when they had a picture of him on TV, it was a pretty good picture, it looked very familiar. Of course, he was a little balder then than what he was when I knew him. When I knew him he had a full head of hair, and like I say he was, he had a good muscular build. He wasn't slender. He wasn't what you would say fat but he had a good muscular build on him and a very handsome fellow. He looked like the same one I knew only considerably older.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from what you saw on television, can you be positive that that was the man that you recall?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; no, this is what I told the boys there in Medford, Oreg. I cannot swear definitely it is the same man. He looks very similar to the one I knew only like I say somewhat older, and I actually didn't think anything about it at the time whether there could be any connection or not until after they said he was from Chicago, Ill., and then is when I said I should call them up, and tell them that I knew a Jack Rubenstein back down there. And that he was, as far as I can remember, and as far as I know, and to the best of my knowledge, he was a member of the Communist Party at that time, or at least he was certainly thickly associated with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Really, but you don't know anything more about his association other than what you have told us here at this time?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I did not. I never got to Chicago to see him or meet him or see his establishment; as he called it. So I don't know anything about his Chicago activities. The only thing I know is that he did come down there and it seemed like every time they came to Muncie, Ind., they would have one of these meetings, either the day before or the same day, and that there was also quite a bit of talk about this meeting they was having.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were these meetings during the week or weekends?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Usually during the week. Because Sunday I wouldn't have known anything about it. It could have been on a Sunday--no; it couldn't have been because they were talking about the meeting that night and it couldn't have been on a Saturday night, I am sure, because we would work until 9 o'clock unless they was quite late.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you sure that Jack Rubenstein and Charlotte and Seymour came down during the week and not on weekends?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, usually they came on the weekend. It was usually now, as near as I can remember, there was only one time that I remember they came that there was a meeting that night. Usually they came down and spent the weekend, I don't know where they stayed, whether they stayed with Sam or Lawson or who they stayed with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You only remember one occasion that Seymour and Charlotte came that there was what you called these meetings at night?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Seymour, that was the second time, that was the day that Jack and I went to dinner, Jack Rubenstein, and this was during the week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that there was a meeting that night?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because they was talking, there had been several, I don't know how many, up there during the day, they was talking about the meeting that night. They never referred to what the meeting was or where the meeting was going to be or anything about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that made you remember the meetings on this particular night?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. You mean the second time that I met this----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I take it----

315

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was a meeting that apparently had some significance because there were so many people coming in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn't the meeting at which you found the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what makes you associate a meeting, a large meeting with Jack Ruby's or Jack Rubenstein's visit?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Jack, Seymour, and Charlotte came in that day, and then there was during the day, I don't know how many others had come in, and some of them like I say were from Ohio, some of them from Chicago, Indianapolis, Indiana, and various parts, all over, and there was so many people, I was--people I had never seen before. I wasn't introduced to anybody in any way, shape, or form that day but there was certainly a lot of them running in and out. And it seemed like everybody had to come in and say hello to Sam. This is why I say apparently it must have been a large meeting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know, where the meeting was held?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I assumed that it was held upstairs but I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't have any information as to where it was held?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you don't have any information that there was a meeting on this occasion?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Outside of what they was talking about I mean when they came in, they said, why there was one fellow, what made me know the meeting was that night, they came in just as we was leaving, Jack Rubenstein and I was leaving, and Jack said something to him about what are you doing here and he said, well he says, I came to the meeting tonight, and this is why I know there was definitely a meeting that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember your eating with him, your being with Jack Rubenstein after so many years, what makes you remember your being with him on this particular occasion?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I don't know. At the time he asked me to go to lunch with him, I was under the impression that he was something of a--I never really affiliated him with the Communist Party up until at that time, and what he was it was his business; it was none of mine. Like I say, I didn't think too much about it at that time. But because he asked me to go to lunch with him, I felt pretty important, this is why I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point though did you associate him with the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I more or less, I suppose knew that he was because he was coming in with Seymour and all the rest of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you thought he was?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I thought he was but I wasn't sure. I had no actual knowledge. I mean they never said he was or he never said in any way anything concerning the Communist Party in any way, shape, or form to me and the only way I do connect him with it is like I say when I picked up the list.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Seymour about the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you talk with Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would assume almost every time that he came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you talked with Seymour at least a dozen times?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't have any trouble picking out his picture, would you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I don't believe so. In fact, I think I have already identified his picture twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think Mr. Mullaney had some pictures of him. The only thing about it is I remember him as Charlotte's husband but I couldn't put his name on it, that Jasson was the one I couldn't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he showed you a single picture of Seymour were you able to identify that picture alone?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was one of them that I couldn't identify. He had him in, it seems to me he was in a bathing suit. There was one of them I

316

couldn't identify and I couldn't tell you which one it was. Anyway he told me it was the same man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think one reason why it was so easy for me to pick out this picture of Seymour the first time was because Charlotte was also with him. That was the first picture he showed me, Charlotte and Seymour both together, but then he showed me another one of Seymour that I picked out as the same man and then he showed me another one that I couldn't identify. I think there were three pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 4. I want to hand it to you. That is a photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man in any way?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I know this man. I want to say that that is Jack Rubinstein but it doesn't hardly look like him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he is a little too heavy there, but he is muscular, heavy build, and it looks like----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about his features, looks like Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. His hair mainly and his eyes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his nose?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The nose is a little out of shape from the way I remember him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a nose did Jack Rubenstein have?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was, pardon the expression, an ordinary Jewish nose but it didn't seem like it was that big.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. And I remember him being as something more handsomer than this fellow here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. More handsome?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, this fellow is too rugged looking and Jack Rubenstein, the one I knew, didn't look like a rough character in any way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you then what I have marked as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 5 and I will ask you--wait, I don't want to show you that picture, let me show you a better picture. Here is a better one. I want to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach Exhibit No. 6, July 22, 1964.
Look at that picture and tell me if you recognize that man in any way?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, now there again this looks like the Jack Rubenstein that I knew then but he is somewhat older here than when I knew him or at least according to the picture but he looks very nearly the same.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about him is similar in that picture?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, I don't know. His whole features are all about the same except he is something older. The hair is still about the same, although his hair is receding somewhat. It seems to me like I remember him he had more hair than that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which picture looks more like the Rubenstein that you knew?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think that other one you showed me looks more like him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the two pictures?
Mr. FEHRENBACH; I would say this one here putting them both together, this one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about Exhibit No. 6 looking more like him than Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This one here looks more like him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Exhibit No. 6 looks more like him than Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Yes, it does.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From looking at these photographs, do you have some doubts in your mind as to whether either or these--well, let's take the man in Exhibit No. 6, this one here, do you have some doubt in your mind as to whether this man might be a man who is different from the Jack Rubenstein you knew?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I don't know when this picture was taken but like I

317

say, it does look very familiar or he looks familiar to the same Jack Rubenstein I know only he does look older here than when I remember him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that, is there any doubt that you might have that these two people might be different people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, this man, I can't see the body of him too well but he looks like he may be just a little heavier--of course, I can't tell by his height there but he does look like he might be a little heavier than the one I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked for as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 5.
Take a look at that man in that picture and tell me to what extent does he look like the Jack Rubenstein that you knew?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. If this is Jack Rubenstein here he is much older now than when I knew him, much older.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The man here in this picture, does he look substantially different from the man that you remember as Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, he does. There is a vague familiarness about his face, but I can't--I wouldn't want to say definitely that was the same Jack Rubenstein I know unless he had changed considerably with the years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 7. This is another photograph. Would you look at the man in that picture and tell me to what extent that man resembles the man that you recall as Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it would be very hard to say because I never her the features, like I say, it does look similar to the Jack Rubenstein that I knew only he is much older than then plus the fact he has got a hat on. I never remember seeing him with a hat, but--and somewhat heavier, much heavier, in fact than what he used to be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. But I don't know the certain way he is holding his mouth or is there some way that reminds me of the same one that I knew. He had a funny way of holding his mouth, kind of a--I don't know just exactly how you would call it--a prissy look about his mouth, and that there picture there, the last one you showed me he is holding his mouth very nearly the way that he used to hold it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, on the various occasions that you saw this man how much time would you say that you spent with him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second time he came there when we had lunch, I would say I spent approximately 2 hours with him that day. We was at lunch. I remember this because I was somewhat afraid that Sam was going to give me a good bawling out for being late because we were over at the restaurant for about an hour and a half, and the first time I met him, I would say it could have been 2 hours because we was there in the office, that is when they were showing me all those tricks and things, and then the third time not over 15, 20 seconds.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So a total of maybe 4 hours altogether?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you know on the occasions that you had seen Seymour Jasson about how many times would you say that you had been with him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. With Seymour, I would say maybe 6 hours out of the 12 out of the many times he was there. We didn't spend too much time together. I think one reason why I remember the Jack Rubenstein, why this name sticks with me, and I think maybe I ought to explain this, when I worked for Sam I was young, 16, 17, and I was always given the understanding that I was a young fellow. Anybody my superior that I was to say "mister" to, I was never allowed to call anybody by the first name.
Jack Rubenstein was one of them who treated me like I was somebody. He treated me very decent and when I said Mr. Rubenstein he informed me that his name was Jack and that is the way I was supposed to address him and he was the only one of all of them that I can remember who ever told me this. In other words, he treated me very, very nicely. And also I was quite impressed when he asked me to go to dinner with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This time that you went to dinner with him; what did you talk about?

318

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, we mostly talked about the jewelry, if I remember, and, of course, at that time also something came up about this Mr. Levinson and it was my impression that he knew this Mr. Levinson, and he was talking about, he said, when I got there he said, why if I didn't have a place to go, a hotel or anything to let him know and he could find me a real cheap apartment and a real nice one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about any political topics?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it was never mentioned that I know of. The Cornmunist Party was never mentioned in any way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack Rubenstein talk about political topics?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not to me personally, and I couldn't, I wouldn't want to say for sure that he ever did but I know there was one time when him and Seymour, Lawson Jaffe, and there was one or two others there, and they was in an argument about something, they was arguing about something about what Roosevelt was doing.
Anyway, they referred to him as everything but a President of the United States.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack Rubenstein's attitude about it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He agreed with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was hostile to President Roosevelt?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he was--well, I don't know if it was Mr. Roosevelt or not but it was the way the U.S. Government was doing in the war. What they was doing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon--was this on the first meeting or the second meeting?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am not sure. I know there were several of them there on the second meeting, the second meeting I had with him when we went to dinner. When we came back, I believe it could have been on the second meeting because this is the meeting that there were so many of them came in the shop there and they was all arguing and talking about it and then they commenced to jump on Sam Jaffe and Sam carried, had a large map on the wall, and he used to keep pins in it. All the moves, every move the Russians made and every move the United States made. He had a red pin for the Russians and I don't know, a green or blue for the United States, and then I think he had another, the black pins he was using for the German Army where they were at, and every time there was news he would always jump up and go ahead and change his pins so he would know where they was at. And they came in and looked at his pins and they was saying he had it all wrong, and so forth, and so on, and they was going to change it and Sam wouldn't let them.
This was actually, if I remember correctly, this is what really brought on the argument because they got to arguing about the United States wasn't doing what they were supposed to do, and that they was lagging behind, and if they had a President of the United States that knew what he was doing that they could get this thing over with, go in there and completely wipe Germany out and take over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They were criticizing Roosevelt because they didn't think he knew how effectively to conduct the war, is that correct?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think this was mainly the drift of it. This is mainly what they was arguing about. But after they went into the other office while they was talking in there there were certainly things that came up about how the administration was being run, and there was, I remember something about some law that they had passed or a resolution or something, that they was all very concerned about, that they was all quite upset about but I can't recall what it was they was talking about now.
It was something I don't know now, what it was something Congress passed or what it was, and I don't know if Jack Rubenstein entered into that conversation or not.
It seemed like I heard his voice once or twice, then like I say I am not sure. There were so many in there I couldn't know who was talking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Shuster ever associated with Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not that I know of. I mean he could have known him and he could have been up there sometime when he was there, I don't know. There was usually so many in and out that I never really--I couldn't really say.

319

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you, ever see Mr. Jasser talk with Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser; yes, many times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Mr. Standt talk with Mr. Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Morton Standt usually came up. Bill Jasser, after Seymour and them would come in from Chicago, Lawson Jaffe was the first one to come up or usually he would come up with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you, Jack Rubenstein was only there on one occasion that you recall when they had a meeting?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And my question to you is, do you ever recall that Mr. Jasser talked with Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Phil Jasser used to come up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did he talk with Rubenstein on this one occasion?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't know as he actually came up and talked to Jack Rubenstein personally but he would come up and him and Seymour and Rubenstein and Sam Jaffe were always in the same office and Lawson Jaffe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say all would be, as if it happened a number of times but there was only one occasion when you mentioned that Rubenstein came in and you had any idea that there was a meeting afterward or there might have been a meeting afterward.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. What I mean is when they would come up there to the office shortly after they would get there the rest of them would come in on various occasions. Usually when they came in they would spend anywhere from 1 to maybe 3 or 4 hours or maybe all afternoon in Sam's office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, you see, the first time you tell me that Rubenstein came he was only there for a short while, a couple of minutes, and the next time that he came you think he was around for a couple of hours, and the next time----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The next time he came in he was there quite awhile in the afternoon. This was when so many of them were in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The next time he came in he spent the 2 hours with you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second time is when he spent the 2 hours, hour and a half with me when we went out to dinner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time. I see. The first time he came how much time did he spend?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time I can't recall exactly how long he was there that first time. All I remember is I couldn't actually say how long but there was several different ones came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. So he could have been there 15, 20 minutes, a half hour, maybe an hour, 2 hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other people who visited Sam Jaffe regularly from out of town?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. The only ones I actually recall out of town that used to come up there was just his son-in-law, Seymour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know anybody else who visited him from out of town?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There were others who came in but I can't recall any of their names and they never came regularly, I mean never long enough for me to be introduced or anything like that that I could actually place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any salesmen who called on Sam Jaffe?
Mr. FAHRENBACH. Oh, yes; we had salesmen coming in all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of their names?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don't recall any of their names. I mean, this was strictly business and Sam took care of the ordering and everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any customers who came in regularly?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Outside of the jewelry store we were doing work for; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't have any business off the street?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not that I recall of. If he did, I mean it was something that I would know very little about, and as a matter of fact, he wouldn't let me know because he wouldn't want the other jewelry stores to know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you haven't told us or we haven't covered already that you think is pertinent to this matter?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I think this is everything that I can remember to the

320

best of my ability and knowledge right now. I know since I first told the FBI there in Medford about this that I thought it could possibly be the same man, the wife and I have talked it over on many occasions, and I have racked by brains trying to think of anything else that would be pertinent to it but I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the phrase that it possibly be the same man?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I told the FBI in Medford that I could not definitely swear it was the same man but his facial features and things leads me to believe that it could possibly be. And I didn't really draw that conclusion until, and it is like I told them, I couldn't actually draw that conclusion until after I had heard his name was Jack Rubenstein and he was from Chicago and then when I seen the picture of him, and it did very definitely look quite a bit like the Jack Rubenstein I knew, only somewhat older, because well I don't know, the pictures I have seen of him since he shot this Oswald, he has always been rather sloppily dressed and when I knew him he was always very well dressed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I certainly appreciate your--go ahead.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Of course, he is a lot paunchier now then he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a number of years, 18 years have passed. I want to thank you for coming here all the way from Oregon, and helping us with this. We appreciate any cooperation we can get in this matter. I don't have any more questions, and if you don't have any more, why, we can recess, adjourn.